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11-08-2011, 03:13 PM | #26 |
Santa Claus
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hypothetical?right,well I dont put the word hypothetical and science in the same sentence,we are looking at this question from 2 very different angles,by saying so what to the "hypothetical" existence "somewhere else" is also saying so what to your friends "claims" also,because they must exist out there first,but buy saying this would also denote that we are talking about beings which imo are not there,organisms perhaps,though im sure science takes a backseat to coast to coast AM with george norry right?I have a hard time digesting the fact that because you hear stories at work you would backseat science,people have been seeing ufo's and what not for years man,the key here is there is NO proof period,that is why science is "hypothetical",they base their findings on solid proof and if non exists then its a hypothesis,we could go round and round but the fact is neither of us know the true answer and that is that.
What I'm saying is this: if you think it is possible that somewhere out there alien life exists, great, but I don't care about that. What I'm asking is this: what do you think of actual human accounts of humans comming into contact with alien life?
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11-08-2011, 03:33 PM | #27 |
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I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure what you are getting at here with this one.
What I'm saying is this: if you think it is possible that somewhere out there alien life exists, great, but I don't care about that. What I'm asking is this: what do you think of actual human accounts of humans comming into contact with alien life? and as for contact with humans and aliens,nothing more then campfire stories. if you are confused then here,I know by saying I dont use hypothetical and science in the same sentence then saying if science cant figure something out it is left a hypothesis is confusing,what I meant is that these "encounters" are what is hypothetical,in no way can someones word be trusted as gospel or truth,yet science can prove things and back it up with proof which is much more than anyones word can offer. Last edited by D00MTR0N; 11-08-2011 at 03:39 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 03:35 PM | #28 |
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Our galaxy is a medium sized galaxy that consists of around 200 billion known stars. And there are somewhere like a hundred billion known galaxies in the universe.
It is arrogance in the highest order for anyone to believe that we are the only life in the universe. So it's not a matter of believing in extra terrestrials. They are statistically and mathamatically there. Do I believe that aliens are visiting earth and abducting people? I don't know. It is almost impossible as we know science and physics. But we also don't know everything about science and physics. So I have no problem accepting that a race that advanced has a means to get here we don't understand. So the question becomes more in terms of why. I think if there are "aliens among us", the majority of the "visits" have no malicious intent. We're extremely basal animals to them. In our own world, we go out in our boats with our fishing lines. We catch a shark, we pull it aboard, and do medical exams on it. We draw blood from it. We do all sorts of things to this terrified little animal. Then we jam a device under it's skin we call a tracker, so we can either find it again, or recognize it at a later date, and then we release it. The shark has not suffered physically and is no worse for wear, but now has a tramatic story in it's life. We do this all over the world, with all sorts of animals we want to study, using boats, cars, helicoptors. Most of these alien abductions really sound no different than what we do to our own wildlife. Or what we'd do to alien wildlife if we managed to get out there.
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11-08-2011, 03:44 PM | #29 |
Santa Claus
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Our galaxy is a medium sized galaxy that consists of around 200 billion known stars. And there are somewhere like a hundred billion known galaxies in the universe.
It is arrogance in the highest order for anyone to believe that we are the only life in the universe. So it's not a matter of believing in extra terrestrials. They are statistically and mathamatically there. The Mathematical Probability Of Life On Other Earth-Like Planets I see the universe as finite.
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11-08-2011, 03:48 PM | #30 |
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yes but these stories do not follow any kind of known logic,we have been hearing about these "encounters" for decades yet NEVER ONCE has anyone seen an alien and presented proof,thats the catch proof,without it you can argue forever but it goes nowhere in the end,so here comes the conspirasists who will say its a cover up or its this or that or whatever,proof,its only logical to ask for it,yes it is hard to imagine that we are the only life forms in the universe BUT to think there are beings coming here and drawing circles in cornfields and taking humans and running tests on them is just silly,it would make a good comic or movie but lets use logic folks and remember proof is the only truth.
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11-08-2011, 03:59 PM | #31 |
Santa Claus
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yes but these stories do not follow any kind of known logic,we have been hearing about these "encounters" for decades yet NEVER ONCE has anyone seen an alien and presented proof,thats the catch proof,without it you can argue forever but it goes nowhere in the end,so here comes the conspirasists who will say its a cover up or its this or that or whatever,proof,its only logical to ask for it,yes it is hard to imagine that we are the only life forms in the universe BUT to think there are beings coming here and drawing circles in cornfields and taking humans and running tests on them is just silly,it would make a good comic or movie but lets use logic folks and remember proof is the only truth.
It's easy to call people who have encountered the supernatural crazy when you don't know them. Knowing someone, and hearing their stories makes me wonder...
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11-08-2011, 04:06 PM | #32 |
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I disagree
The Mathematical Probability Of Life On Other Earth-Like Planets I see the universe as finite. But that doesn't stop the fact that there are literally more stars in the sky than grains of sand in all the beaches of the world. And it's become known that planetary objects orbiting stars tends to be the rule, over the exception. We're now finding planets around almost every star we look at. We've even found planets orbiting pulsars, something we previously did not believe could even be possible. And as we're learning on earth, Life will find a way. Life can exist in conditions we once thought impossible. Conditions that are potentially present on Europa, in our very own solar system. Europa is contains a liquid ocean with a warm core due to it's gravatational interactions with Jupiter and it's siblings. This could potentially create the same conditions we find in our own Challenger Deep with the life forming around volcanic vents. And even in a finite universe, it's still larger than anyone can wrap their minds around. There are so many stars out there the numbers become meaningless. (None of my calculators are powerful enough to come up with this number) When you add in that maybe a tenth of all those stars have planets, with some of those planets having moons? That's centellions upon centillions upon centillions of chances for life to form. So yes. It's out there. And it may even be as close as Jupiter. And no one's given up on finding fossils on Mars.
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11-08-2011, 04:09 PM | #33 |
Santa Claus
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Yes the universe is finite. That's not a new concept. It's believe to only be 20% larger than we can actually view.
But that doesn't stop the fact that there are literally more stars in the sky than grains of sand in all the beaches of the world. And it's become known that planetary objects orbiting stars tends to be the rule, over the exception. We're now finding planets around almost every star we look at. We've even found planets orbiting pulsars, something we previously did not believe could even be possible. And as we're learning on earth, Life will find a way. Life can exist in conditions we once thought impossible. Conditions that are potentially present on Europa, in our very own solar system. Europa is contains a liquid ocean with a warm core due to it's gravatational interactions with Jupiter and it's siblings. This could potentially create the same conditions we find in our own Challenger Deep with the life forming around volcanic vents. And even in a finite universe, it's still larger than anyone can wrap their minds around. There are so many stars out there the numbers become meaningless. (None of my calculators are powerful enough to come up with this number) When you add in that maybe a tenth of all those stars have planets, with some of those planets having moons? That's centellions upon centillions upon centillions of chances for life to form. So yes. It's out there. And it may even be as close as Jupiter. And no one's given up on finding fossils on Mars. It states that if the universe were infinite, then it would be possible, but statistically improbable. I believe the universe is finite, and accept that life in it is also statistically improbable, our own included.
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11-08-2011, 04:11 PM | #34 |
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11-08-2011, 04:14 PM | #35 |
Santa Claus
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This guy really believes the stories he's telling, or at least it seems like he does.
He told me another one today. All of the stories he has told so far make me think of the concept of the Forms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms
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11-08-2011, 04:15 PM | #36 |
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On the radio show (Coast to Coast) I heard a guy on there suggest that aliens some people see are actually some form of robot. Never thought about that before but I would imagine if aliens had the tech to travel great distances in space, they could probably build robots to do the exploring too.
After all, all our memories are stored chemicaly- so any scanner powerful enough to record those exact patterns of chemicals, along with DNA, can re-create the original person (or alien) from that information. Then the newly made crew could explore, have a latte and let the ship recycle them to death- secure in the knowledge of another life when they return home....assuming it's still there when they get back thousands of years later! This kind of memory retrieval might oneday act as a failsafe against planetary disadters or world wars- there are massive seed-houses stored within mountains right now for just such a global disaster- tens of millions of seeds, flash frozen as a preserved failsafe. So too could humanity colonize another system....and aliens could do much the same. But that does not mean that Aliens that look SO MUCH like us are in any way likely- just coming from an Earth like gravity is unlikely. I'd check out the Drake Equation- it breaks down the hurdles to alien contact- while making a very strong case for alien life in general. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/drake-equation.html Hell, there could be numerous aquatic species of intelligent life out there that are shielded from radio signals alltogether! Or they live under ice sheets like Europa, that shield them from radiation. Or they live underground. Or so far closer to the galactic core that long range radio signals are drown out by stellar radio signals (Quasars). Or Space God already got tired of them and flushed them own the space toilet. Last edited by Jason Abbadon; 11-08-2011 at 04:18 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 04:23 PM | #37 |
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11-08-2011, 04:44 PM | #38 |
You Can't Ignore My Girth
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I'm sure somewhere in another galaxy there are some sort of humanoid race. They're probably just in there prehistoric age. I find it harder to believe that we're alone, rather than aliens existing.
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11-08-2011, 04:56 PM | #39 |
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For one, the article speaks of intellegent life. Assuming that's excluding everything outside of human-like intellegence, it's an extremely limited view of the universe. I'm not speaking exclusively of human-like intellegence. I'm talking about life, period. Aliens life forms are not limited exclusively to little grey men, klingons, or acid-blooded insects. I've also heard this throery before, and it's heavily critisized and largely rejected. It carries an extremely narrow view of what is not only possible, but what is indeed likely. In his own calculations, everything needs to be exactly like earth. It requires a similar solarsystem, an identical sun, and a nearly identical planet. It requires a very slow rate of evolution, and it assumes that it "took" 4 billion years for us to evolve. Which is just insanely stupid, and shows he has very little understanding of evolution and bio diversity. The universe is 13 billion years old. Stars lived and died before we came along. Let's look at ourselves as the example like he does. Earth is 4 billion years old. Life took hold perminalty a billion years ago. Complex life on earth has existed for 500 million years. Human ancestors came about 3 million years ago. Modern humans, and thus modern intellegence made the scene only a few thousand years ago. Why? Why is this the rule for his model? Why does he assume it takes 4 billion years from point a to point b, just because humans were fasionably late? There is no reason why an intellegent life form could have evolved before then. (In fact, if one really wants to get into detail, true intellegence has evolved several times on earth. Humans, cetaceans, cephalopods, elephants, and it's even believed troodontids achieved this level of intellegence) And indeed, he doesn't even state why it couldn't appear before then. He also does not take into account Mars, which lived and died before life took hold on earth. A billion years from point a to point b was well within Mars' ability to produce life, before she died. But even more insulting is his flawed calculations do not factor in LIFE ITSELF. Just human-like life. It does not factor in the Marses in the universe. It doesn't factor in the Europas. It doesn't factor in the unknown. He also states straight off the bat that given an infinite and endless universe, life in it is *still* improbable. The article is hokum. It is supreme arrogance to believe life exists only on earth when even the finite universe is larger than the human mind can comprehend. Life mathimatically exists elsewhere in the universe. And it may be as close as jupiter.
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11-08-2011, 05:08 PM | #40 |
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I do believe there are other 'beings" around us. |
11-08-2011, 05:21 PM | #41 |
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Location: Los Angeles
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from 1:38-2:00 the ufo in question I actually saw and am looking for the picture that I took from that night.
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11-08-2011, 05:32 PM | #42 |
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
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I was having a drink with my neighbor and we noticed some weird light in the sky, buy the time I grabbed my cellphone, it had made this crazy spiral pattern.
I've enclosed the only pics of this I could snap at the time. But I have seen more of this event. Also sorry for the triple post! |
11-08-2011, 06:44 PM | #43 |
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This thread has been incredibly entertaining.
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11-08-2011, 06:51 PM | #44 |
Santa Claus
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Quote:
First, I think *you* need to reread the article. I don't think you understood everything and may ghave gotten caught up in some of the wording.
For one, the article speaks of intellegent life. Assuming that's excluding everything outside of human-like intellegence, it's an extremely limited view of the universe. I'm not speaking exclusively of human-like intellegence. I'm talking about life, period. Aliens life forms are not limited exclusively to little grey men, klingons, or acid-blooded insects. I've also heard this throery before, and it's heavily critisized and largely rejected. It carries an extremely narrow view of what is not only possible, but what is indeed likely. In his own calculations, everything needs to be exactly like earth. It requires a similar solarsystem, an identical sun, and a nearly identical planet. It requires a very slow rate of evolution, and it assumes that it "took" 4 billion years for us to evolve. Which is just insanely stupid, and shows he has very little understanding of evolution and bio diversity. The universe is 13 billion years old. Stars lived and died before we came along. Let's look at ourselves as the example like he does. Earth is 4 billion years old. Life took hold perminalty a billion years ago. Complex life on earth has existed for 500 million years. Human ancestors came about 3 million years ago. Modern humans, and thus modern intellegence made the scene only a few thousand years ago. Why? Why is this the rule for his model? Why does he assume it takes 4 billion years from point a to point b, just because humans were fasionably late? There is no reason why an intellegent life form could have evolved before then. (In fact, if one really wants to get into detail, true intellegence has evolved several times on earth. Humans, cetaceans, cephalopods, elephants, and it's even believed troodontids achieved this level of intellegence) And indeed, he doesn't even state why it couldn't appear before then. He also does not take into account Mars, which lived and died before life took hold on earth. A billion years from point a to point b was well within Mars' ability to produce life, before she died. But even more insulting is his flawed calculations do not factor in LIFE ITSELF. Just human-like life. It does not factor in the Marses in the universe. It doesn't factor in the Europas. It doesn't factor in the unknown. He also states straight off the bat that given an infinite and endless universe, life in it is *still* improbable. The article is hokum. It is supreme arrogance to believe life exists only on earth when even the finite universe is larger than the human mind can comprehend. Life mathimatically exists elsewhere in the universe. And it may be as close as jupiter. You stated that life on other planets was a mathmatical certainty and I provided you with a link to an article that shows that even if the universe were infinite (which it isn't) it would be unlikely. Here is another article explaining why your assertion that it was a statistical given wasn't true: The Drake Equation - How Many Alien Civilizations Exist in Our Galaxy? And another, even more scientific one: http://news.discovery.com/space/exop...cent-what.html Personally, I'm not 100% convinced either way. I don't think so though, and almost feel like belief in alien life as a given is just wishfull thinking.
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Last edited by CLASSIFIED; 11-08-2011 at 07:22 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 07:25 PM | #45 |
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I disagree.
You stated that life on other planets was a mathmatical certainty and I provided you with a link to an article that shows that even if the universe were infinite (which it isn't) it would be unlikely. Here is another article explaining why your assertion that it was a statistical given wasn't true: The Drake Equation - How Many Alien Civilizations Exist in Our Galaxy? To clarify, I'm not saying there definately isn't life out there, just that it isn't a given. You are speaking about star travelling cultures. I am speaking about life itself. You do know that fish, plants, insects, and bacteria qualify as life, don't you? Not just someone that can build a spaceship? Did you even read and comprehend anything I said? I mean, my goddess... even the Vatican acknowledges the likelyhood of life existing outside of earth. By the way, I've been studying astrophysics for 30 years. At the risk of sounding arrogant, you're not going to produce a website link to invalidate me. (Though I admit I was wondering if your googling would bring you to something intellegent like the drake equasion.) Does "intellegence" exist on other planets? I don't know. No one has presented me with conclusive proof that intellegence isn't extremely rare on earth. (The internet helps disproove the theory of intellegent life on earth) But the Universe is too vast. 200 billion stars times 100 billion galaxies. With ten percent of that number having planets. The majority of those planets having moons. If the number is even one percent likelyhood, that's still far greater likelyhood than you're understanding it to be. Hell, we already know of three planets that so far seem to be more capable of life than Europa. Anyway, I'm done with this because you haven't actually commented on anything I've said, and certainly not even proven to me you've understood, or even *read* my posts. Believe what you wish to. I really feel sorry that you're trapped in such a limited universe. EDIT: Plus... science changes and expands every single day. As recently as the late ninties, science thought that our solar system was the exception, and it was the only one with planets. There were equations to proove this. And once we figured out how to locate extrasolar planets, we've come to learn that planets orbiting stars tends to be the rule. Is life common? No. With Extraterestrial life be discovered in our lifetime? Unless one of them comes to us, or fossils are found on mars, no. But if life exists in Challenger Deep... if life exists in scalding hot waters, and in sulphiric places on earth... life exists on earth in places we cannot comprehend. And there is even reason now to believe it exists within the mantel of earth... then there is no reason why it cannot take hold on extrasolar planets, both extreme and moderate.
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Last edited by Crazy Jetty; 11-08-2011 at 07:44 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 07:40 PM | #46 |
Santa Claus
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Oh my lord, I know how Sheldon feels.
You are speaking about star travelling cultures. I am speaking about life itself. You do know that fish, plants, insects, and bacteria qualify as life, don't you? Not just someone that can build a spaceship? Did you even read and comprehend anything I said? I mean, my goddess... even the Vatican acknowledges the likelyhood of life existing outside of earth. By the way, I've been studying astrophysics for 30 years. At the risk of sounding arrogant, you're not going to produce a website link to invalidate me. (Though I admit I was wondering if your googling would bring you to something intellegent like the drake equasion.) Does "intellegence" exist on other planets? I don't know. No one has presented me with conclusive proof that intellegence isn't extremely rare on earth. (The internet helps disproove the theory of intellegent life on earth) But the Universe is too vast. 200 billion stars times 100 billion galaxies. With ten percent of that number having planets. The majority of those planets having moons. If the number is even one percent likelyhood, that's still far greater likelyhood than you're understanding it to be. Hell, we already know of three planets that so far seem to be more capable of life than Europa. Anyway, I'm done with this because you haven't actually commented on anything I've said, and certainly not even proven to me you've understood, or even *read* my posts. Believe what you wish to. I really feel sorry that you're trapped in such a limited universe. The problem is that you want to believe that life outside earth is a statistical given while I'm willing to accept that I don't know one way or another. You seem to be so steadfast in your belief, that you continue to ignore the evidence in front of you; namely what I've posted. I never said that there wasn't life on other planets, just that it wasn't a statistical certainty. I've provided you with 3 articles illustrating that your assertion just simply isn't true. It isn't a mathmatical given, regardless of the size of the universe. As a matter of fact, life on this planet is pretty damn lucky, statisticaly, to exist. But just because it does, doesn't mean lightning is going to strike again. I also don't appreciate your insulting my intelligence. I feel like you owe me an apology for misrepresenting what I've posted. Oh, and before I go:Rare Earth hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Last edited by CLASSIFIED; 11-08-2011 at 07:42 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 07:51 PM | #47 |
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I don't owe you anything.
But I will gladly admit the last post of yours shows a genuine interest and makes intellegent points. I have no respect for "I disagree read this link" and nothing more, in an intellegent debate. When you actually assert yourself and validate the effort I put into my posts with something of genuine substence like you are now, I respect it.
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Last edited by Crazy Jetty; 11-08-2011 at 08:03 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 07:54 PM | #48 |
Santa Claus
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Yeah, I didn't say you did, just that I felt like you did.
I am not unintelligent. Here is the probability of life on earth: http://www.reasons.org/probability-life-earth-apr-2004
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Last edited by CLASSIFIED; 11-08-2011 at 07:56 PM.. |
11-08-2011, 08:04 PM | #49 |
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very very interesting thread, I regret the fact that I do not currently have the brain power to join in, but Classified and Jetty seem to be holding this down quite well.
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11-08-2011, 08:08 PM | #50 |
Etherian Panty Inspector
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When I saw that picture, I instinctively hummed the themesong to T and T. LOL. Ah come on, the cool factor alone should spare me from an off-topic infraction. As far as aliens go, yeah. I'm sure that at the very least, their space debris has ended up on our planet. |
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