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03-09-2018, 02:08 PM | #26 |
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interesting points..
and while i wholeheartedly agree with you on some.. that list would would be TWICE as long for almost any other star wars movie.... pleassssse don't get me started on the prequels....and i like ALL of them..but i accept them for what they are/were independent films What TLJ did was take those expectations that were created, and then comically destroy almost everyone one of them. So as a standalone movie, TLJ probably works as a decent movie. But from a narrative that flows within the context of TFA and other SW movies, it fails as a narrative. I think the best example is the last scene of TFA. If Luke had taken the saber and thrown it over his head at that very moment before the credits rolled, everyone would have wondered what sort of an ending was that! That is because the music, the camera angles, and everything was giving the audience cues that this was a positively special moment. But produce such a jarring result was what TLJ indeed did do!!!! So my impression is that people who were a bit tightly invested in the SW movie details (which won't be every fan, but certainly a decent percentage of it), found this jarring effect intolerable. It felt like a bait and switch. |
03-09-2018, 02:11 PM | #27 |
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03-09-2018, 04:53 PM | #28 |
King of Nerdom
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How was it insulting? Because if didn't go the way you wanted it to?
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1 - Hux / Poe conversation - Not funny at all and it reduces the menace that Hux represents (the First Order) to a stereotype of the bad guy of the week in a bad TV series.
2 - Luke tossing over his shoulder the lightsaber (that Force Awaken established as a kind of Excalibur of Star Wars) - No respect for his late father's item; the same I-don't-care-about-it-all-anymore attitude could have been made without the "funny" effect by simply letting Luke drop it to the ground. 3 - The milking scene - The less said about that the better. It was embarrassing and totally unnecessary. 4 - The whole casino sidestory, especially the search for the slicer Maz (underused) suggested; why go through all the trouble simply to end up in jail where -oh what a surprise- a guy rots there just waiting to be recruited? Cut the entire Canto thing from the movie and the story will not change. Superfluous. 5 - Rey's vision - Someone can explain what that hole in the ground was supposed to represent beside the obvious a-hole of the island? 6 - Phasma - Wasted, again. It has become ridiculous. 7 - Snoke - Would it have been so hard to make it boast what he has done, where he has been during the Empire, how he has become the "Supreme Leader", etc. when he confronted Rey, just so we could have had a glimpse at who the ****ing hell this big bad guy is? 8 - Look, I'm Leia Poppins y'all - Really? THIS is what the filmmakers came up with to show Leia use the Force? In what was supposed to be a big emotional moment for the character, there was laughter in the theater where I attended. Personally, I was embarrassed for the late actress. 9 - Holdo vs Poe - I understand there was two points of view opposed here but the way it was filmed made the vice admiral look like a villain in disguise. IMO, it should have been Leia in that hyperspace ramming scene... 10 - Luke vs Kylo - I'm ok with all the Force projection power. But someone explain to me why Luke chose to show himself holding the now destroyed blue saber -which Ren broke with Rey- instead of his green one? 2. That was another funny ass scene. THe ending to TFA was so dramatic that just having him toss it like it was garbage was priceless. 3. Agreed. 4. I see nothing wrong with the casino scene. It was interesting to see a casino world in Star Wars as we haven't seen one before. 5. Ray's vision was showing her being on the edge of the dark side. 6. Agreed. Phasma is the Boba Fett of this trilogy. 7. Did the original trilogy boast what Palpatine did to become Emperor? Hell, he wasn't even named dropped in the OT, he was just called The Emperor. Now do I think they could have done more with Snoak? Absolutely. However, the scene where he split was well worth it. 8. lol Yeah, I've got nothing to defend that scene at all. Just awful. It should have been Leia's death scene. 9. Holdo's point was to see how far Poe was willing to go for the cause. I do agree that she should have shared some intell on the situation, but I can see her motivation. Poe was not an official, it is his job to act as instructed and not think. That is the point of a soldier. 10. The battle was just fine. We don't know what Luke did with his green light saber. What defines a good Star Wars movie though? Star Wars is just The Lord of the Rings in space.
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03-09-2018, 06:17 PM | #29 |
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If Leia had seriously died that freaking early in the movie I imagine fans would be more pissed at that than they are amused at her recovery. The scene could have been done better but without it we would never have gotten a Leia/Luke reunion. I'd rather have some silliness and keep Leia around for the rest of this movie than just have the movie say "remember that Carrie died? She's not in the movie anymore."
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03-09-2018, 09:51 PM | #30 |
Illyria's New Qwa'ha Xahn
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Love this set idea. That BB-8 is awesome too! Love that it has his thumbs up included.
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2 - Luke tossing over his shoulder the lightsaber (that Force Awaken established as a kind of Excalibur of Star Wars) - No respect for his late father's item; the same I-don't-care-about-it-all-anymore attitude could have been made without the "funny" effect by simply letting Luke drop it to the ground.
10 - Luke vs Kylo - I'm ok with all the Force projection power. But someone explain to me why Luke chose to show himself holding the now destroyed blue saber -which Ren broke with Rey- instead of his green one? On points 2 and 10 though, they're related directly. In 2, Luke is completely done with that crap, to the extreme of a "get this crap out of here and away from me" more emphatically, which would require him to toss it away from him in a dramatic fashion as in over his shoulder and over a cliff. He's that done with it that he wants it gone entirely but not in a direct violent against it way. So it couldn't be a drop and walk away. It had to be a more callous "get it out of here" entirely kind way that fully shows his entire over-dramatic tired of what the Force has done to his family and life and all he sacrificed for it. Which brings us back to your 10th point later in the movie. His acceptance of the force, his history, and his family line as well as his responsibility to it. Which means he would need that very lightsaber he so callously tossed away when he was fed up with that crap. That's character growth of his come around. That's also the poignancy to him appearing before Leia and his force projection of before he went pure hermit and ran. There's more depth to it than that, but that's the reader's digested version. And it couldn't be Leia that did that hyper jump scene either. It had to be someone under her that would have been a "martyr" so to speak to save the rebellion. Leia is the heart of the rebellion. She's needed for Poe's turnover and growth and not in a sacrificed herself way. This is established by when he does the mutiny that Leia is the one to explain it to him and deflate the mutiny. This film had some heavy learning moments for Poe in it that are going to bring much of his personal journey full circle next film too. That's why the martyr in particular had to be Holdo. It was Poe's mistake that put the rebellion in danger, and now Holdo, the person he tried to start a mutiny against, is the one that has to clean up his mistake. Same as how Poe's own recklessness is what caused another character's sister to die. Because he didn't listen to what he was being told and why. Sacrificing lives without any real forward gains in momentum for the rebellion/resistance. This movie was his flawed moments that are going to reflect and drive his growth later, but at a heavy cost. That's why it couldn't be Leia yet. Most of your other complaints are things you should probably wait to see the next movie about and if they answer it or other media does. Because large chunks of stuff seemed to be setup and positioning for later things. Moments to give various character triumphs to pull their stories full circle, but to also setup later spots to use to progress new stories. Like while the Casino was superfluous to this film(though not really, as it's part of Poe's decisions that impacted the resistance as well as gave Finn his resolution of his own personal arc and sets the finale in motion too for Rey's journey back to the resistance and pulling all the threads together), it did give us the Finn vs Phasma scene to give us Finn's symbolic finally overcoming his past/coming to terms with how he was conscripted in a visual form of facing his oppressor. Which I do also doubt this will be the last time we will see Phasma. As well as I also doubt this will be the last time we see that kid from before the final Casino chase scene. Same as the rest of the search for the Codebreaker is likely to be material to come back up in the next movie. So much of that is setup for the next chapter. Character closure moments but also foreshadowing elements and setup. And there were other story beats they had to cover too. Like the lightsaber breaking because Rey has to finish her training by creating her own anyway, as well as the other symbolism behind it. Same to her vision quest has deeper metaphors associated to it, that'll come up later as deeper revelations are handled when we get to the Knights of Ren, and how they eventually came to Snoke as well as where they've been. That's part of the problem to serialized storytelling. Parts are going to be self-contained, but other parts are there to expand on their usage later so it's not suddenly randomly there later as a detail that never came up before. You have to establish material you want to draw on later to have it there to be drawn upon. Though many fan theories may not be wrong yet either. Rey still could be Luke's daughter. Or Rey could be a new age Anakin. Something the force took care of and guided as it once did Anakin and Luke. Someone new to bring new balance to the force unhindered by the chains of the past. Whereas Kylo is burdened by them, and even in breaking those chains is now even more driven by them into his descent of becoming a full Sith, including his final act in becoming one. That of killing and replacing his master. His final baptism by the darkside of the force. Rey's heritage is really of no direct consequence to the story. It can go either way. As her parentage may yield direct lineage ties to the force, but even without that, the force has never shied away from correcting nature to create a balance. Spiritually she's much like Anakin in that way, but unlike Anakin, she has hope. She maintains her heart. She has support she leans on that pushes her forward, she seeks guidance and listens. Anakin was manipulated through his arrogance and bravado. Through his putting the heaviness of his path on his own shoulders. Rey succeeds because she lacks that, and shares the burden with those that she's willing to reach out for. Bringing us back to the importance of Finn, and the "grabbing her hand"/"giving her hand" growth. This also ties back to her vision as well. The symbolism for Jedi and Sith revolve around two things. Sith are lava/volcanoes, ready to blow and destroy all they touch. Whereas Jedi are Water/a geyser. Life giving water, and geysers being the home of microbial life from the depths of a planet. There's more to it than that, but that's the bare simplest explanation for now. Her vision is about her future and her path and what direction it's going to take as she faces what's inside her. (Similar as to when Anakin finally faced his, it was Lava all around him as everything fell apart and destroyed all it touched, himself included.) No film will ever be perfect for all audiences, but vocal minority distaste does not equate "technical deficiencies" or "lack of story" or "mis-use of techniques". It may mean there's more that you haven't quite grasped to it or do not see. Sometimes it takes time for the full gravity to really settle in. For the full scope to take shape. Especially as we have this new trio each reach different personal arc growth points at different times. Where we started with Finn and Rey, closing Finn's personal arc to start Poe's, and create a new chapter for Rey as she's ready to begin this new journey with both. We also have on the other end of the Force, the new age of the Sith in full power. This new order of sith having completely taken over what the Jedi Order once was. Potentially more than one now around as the Knights of Ren are set to take the stage. What we have here is a complex topic dealing with some very intricate moving parts to show the rise and fall and rise of fascist regimes seeking and controlling power, and the mistakes made that let these regimes rise again. How the final chapter unfolds and what ghosts from the past may follow later and haunt the future is anyone's guess. Last edited by Snowflakian; 03-10-2018 at 03:49 AM.. |
03-09-2018, 10:00 PM | #31 |
King of Nerdom
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If Leia had seriously died that freaking early in the movie I imagine fans would be more pissed at that than they are amused at her recovery. The scene could have been done better but without it we would never have gotten a Leia/Luke reunion. I'd rather have some silliness and keep Leia around for the rest of this movie than just have the movie say "remember that Carrie died? She's not in the movie anymore."
Personally, I think a lot people are letting their nostalgia from the old novels and stuff get in the way of their enjoyment of these new movies. They want little to no surprises in the movies as they want everything to chart familiar territory since that is the universe they grew up with. They also don't want to see their favorite heroes get old and grumpy like real people do. I'm not saying the movie was perfect by any means, as no SW movie has ever been perfect, but people have made TLJ out to be some sort of travesty on the franchise as if it had raped thier childhood, their mother, their dog, and they killed their dog. It tried to do something new and while it didn't succeed at everything it did, I was happy to see it try. The biggest crime this movie made is that Ep 9 will either make or break it. If 9 sucks, the whole trilogy is a waste. If 9 comes out solid, then people will see TLJ in a better light.
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03-09-2018, 10:00 PM | #32 |
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I agree with all of this, especially "dumb fan theories." I did not come out of TFA wondering where Snoak came from (doesn't matter) or believing the Luke was Rey's father.
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03-10-2018, 03:13 AM | #33 |
Join Date: Jan 2014
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However, would you rather she died in a big battle like that or off-screen as she is going to have to be in the next movie?
Personally, I think a lot people are letting their nostalgia from the old novels and stuff get in the way of their enjoyment of these new movies. They want little to no surprises in the movies as they want everything to chart familiar territory since that is the universe they grew up with. They also don't want to see their favorite heroes get old and grumpy like real people do. I know some friends who are way too attached to the old EU books. I never got into those books seriously because I figured eventually one day what is happening would happen, getting more movies that is, but these guys dove right in. They could probably draw me a full extended family tree based on those books if I asked them to. Every time the new movies get brought up they always eventually go to "well the books did it like..." and how much more awesome they think that is. The characterization of Luke in particular. In the books of the old EU I guess he basically became space-Jesus or some other phrase for an ultra-jedi-saint and so they were all complaining that now he's depicted as a flawed, human character who broke under pressure.
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03-10-2018, 05:22 AM | #34 |
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In 2, Luke is completely done with that crap, to the extreme of a "get this crap out of here and away from me" more emphatically, which would require him to toss it away from him in a dramatic fashion as in over his shoulder and over a cliff. He's that done with it that he wants it gone entirely but not in a direct violent against it way. So it couldn't be a drop and walk away. It had to be a more callous "get it out of here" entirely kind way that fully shows his entire over-dramatic tired of what the Force has done to his family and life and all he sacrificed for it.
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03-10-2018, 08:44 AM | #35 |
King of Nerdom
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See, that makes no sense to me. If the movie was an adaptation of the book itself, then they can say that. However, they aren't because last I checked, there was no book titled, "The Force Awakens" or "THe Last Jedi." You can't say a book did it better when there was no book for that movie as the book that comes out is an adaptation of the movie itself.
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03-10-2018, 09:45 AM | #36 |
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I liked TLJ. That said, I don't own a UHD player, and I'm holding out for the inevitable 3-movie box they'll release after the third one. Or 9-movie box for that matter. I am trying my hardest to not double-up on these >_o
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03-10-2018, 10:08 AM | #37 |
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Just to give you an idea of what epic looks like in KOTOR:- Last edited by ddarko; 03-10-2018 at 10:15 AM.. |
03-10-2018, 01:10 PM | #38 |
King of Nerdom
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Okay, cool, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that I found the Luke battle scene to be awesome.
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03-10-2018, 02:17 PM | #39 |
Yup, big change!
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Insulting is a good word. Quote:
A very, very vocal minority were angry with the film. Box office success like this doesn't just come from people seeing it "just because". The film sustained 3 full outstanding weeks of box office attendance. It's also has solid per theater averages even until last week. That's the type of business you get from repeat viewings.
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How was it insulting? Because if didn't go the way you wanted it to?
I have never touched KOTOR nor do I have any interest in it. I only care about the movies and TV shows. Everything else is irrelevant to me. 1. I was laughing my ass off at it. Not only because the trolling Poe did was hilarious, but also having the two leads from Ex Machina confronting each other. 2. That was another funny ass scene. THe ending to TFA was so dramatic that just having him toss it like it was garbage was priceless. 3. Agreed. 4. I see nothing wrong with the casino scene. It was interesting to see a casino world in Star Wars as we haven't seen one before. 5. Ray's vision was showing her being on the edge of the dark side. 6. Agreed. Phasma is the Boba Fett of this trilogy. 7. Did the original trilogy boast what Palpatine did to become Emperor? Hell, he wasn't even named dropped in the OT, he was just called The Emperor. Now do I think they could have done more with Snoak? Absolutely. However, the scene where he split was well worth it. 8. lol Yeah, I've got nothing to defend that scene at all. Just awful. It should have been Leia's death scene. 9. Holdo's point was to see how far Poe was willing to go for the cause. I do agree that she should have shared some intell on the situation, but I can see her motivation. Poe was not an official, it is his job to act as instructed and not think. That is the point of a soldier. 10. The battle was just fine. We don't know what Luke did with his green light saber. What defines a good Star Wars movie though? Star Wars is just The Lord of the Rings in space. 2. I agree about not caring about much of anything besides the films and TV shows. 3. That's why you can't see the problems with this film. You think Stars Wars is LOTR in space. Insulting, incorrect, and foolish. What kind of fan says that? No fan.
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03-10-2018, 04:46 PM | #40 |
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Not at all. Tolkien was definitely and clearly an influence on Lucas (one of many influences of course) and obvious parallels can be made between the two series. Lucas even used dialogue verbatim from Tolkien in an early draft of A New Hope.
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03-10-2018, 05:20 PM | #41 |
Yup, big change!
Join Date: Feb 2017
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There is a difference between taking inspiration and mimicry, the latter of which Dr. Kain implied Star Wars to be doing. Star Wars is NOT Lord of the Rings in space.
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03-10-2018, 10:11 PM | #42 |
King of Nerdom
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I was entertained, thus, it was a good movie.
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Not a minority, at least 50% of fans disliked the film. It was very polarizing.
I had an entire Facebook argument with some jackass who refused to say why he didn't like the movie outside of those four words. Quote:
1. it was insulting because it did not respect what Star Wars is about, or the characters that made it what it was. It also took a dump on everything JJ Abrams set up in TFA.
Also, what do you mean it did not respect what Star Wars is about? Star Wars is about guys with space ships fighting other guys with bigger space ships. Some of them have mystical abilities to do whatever the plot requires them to do and they use laser swords. Did you not get those in the version of TLJ you saw? Quote:
3. That's why you can't see the problems with this film. You think Stars Wars is LOTR in space. Insulting, incorrect, and foolish. What kind of fan says that? No fan.
Is Star Wars not fantasy?
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03-10-2018, 10:33 PM | #43 |
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I think the big issue with Star Wars is the fact that there was such a big ass gap in between the original trilogy and the prequels and the dis wars films. The OT was so long ago that it became enshrined as this “perfect” classic that’s above reproach, then during the decades of time between the OT and the prequels so much fan fodder was concocted that, in many people’s minds became cannon, comics, books, fan fic, video games, etc, that now every time a movie comes up with a concept that doesn’t fit the Star Wars universe fans have built in there minds for four decades they flip the hell out. I remember when episode 1 came out everyone was like... what the fuck mediclorians? Now people are bitching about “Luke sky walker wouldn’t do that!” Ultimately it all is what it is. Remember kids everybody doesn’t have to love everything.... that said ESB is still the best SW film period and anyone who disagrees is an inbred jackass, not opinion, pure fact.
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03-10-2018, 10:53 PM | #44 |
MUtant Overlord
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A very, very vocal minority were angry with the film. Box office success like this doesn't just come from people seeing it "just because". The film sustained 3 full outstanding weeks of box office attendance. It's also has solid per theater averages even until last week. That's the type of business you get from repeat viewings.
As an aside, I do have my own problems with the film. I found it flawed but enjoyable. It's about the middle of the pack for my Star Wars rankings. To be fair, the week-to-week drop at the box office was quite steep and it didn’t maintain as long as you’d expect. It make a ton of money but fell short of the studio’s projections. I think some people, like myself, came back to it weeks later to see if it improved with some time. The movie had a lot of fun but the pacing, overall plot logic, and character reasoning were poor. It makes up for it mostly but far from a good Star Wars movie to me personally. I do like that they tried to change some things up though.
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03-11-2018, 08:28 AM | #45 |
King of Nerdom
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I really don't get the "good Star Wars movie" aspect you guys are saying. A good movie is a good movie regardless of whether it has a title on it or not. Like the 1998 Godzilla movie is just a shit movie whether it has Godzilla on the title or not.
With that said, I think The Phantom Menace is the only bad movie in the franchise because it is so god damn boring. AotC and RotS all have issues, but they are still entertaining to watch thanks to their lushes environments, gorgeous fight choreography, and John Williams' superb score.
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03-11-2018, 09:07 AM | #46 |
MUtant Overlord
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If you don’t get then you don’t get it I guess. More likely you are just nitpicking semantics.
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03-11-2018, 10:07 AM | #47 |
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I think that thinking might be the issue. One can be entertained by even a bad movie. The reason for being entertained can just be because one is in the mood for exactly the type of content that is contained in it.
On the other hand, to be a good movie, that particular movie must be evaluated objectively within its larger narrative context, style, consistency, etc. This is where TLJ fails. TLJ, for better or for worse, is happening in the context of a universe that has been built by Star Wars movies before it. Even the SW extended universe, though it’s plot elements are no longer canon, do shape the expectations/standard that will be used to judge the quality level of TLJ in terms of story quality, battle quality etc. So this is why TLJ comes across as a bad “Star Wars” movie, and doesn’t look too great. The Star Wars elements in SW are not that great ( duels, mastering of the force, villains, lore mechanics/consistency (being able to do massive damage by ramming after engaging hyperdrive) etc. More problematically, it ends up contradicting what it’s own predecessor setup by using various narrative devices. So as a SW movie it fails horribly. So less you are aware and invested in the SW lore/mechanics/quality, the more likely you are to be entertained by this movie. But it also means that most will likely find it hard to watch if they are invested, and are aware of those things. |
03-11-2018, 10:18 AM | #48 |
King of Nerdom
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I had no issue with the duels, the Force, and Kylo Ren is badass. Also, the only Star Wars lore is what has been shown in the previous 8 movies and two cartoon series. I didn't see TLJ contradict anything from those.
Why are you trying to make me think this movie is bad because you don't like it? If you didn't like it because you thought it was a bad movie, fine, that's your call. However, if you didn't like it because it didn't do what you wanted it to, then that is quite childish. And no, a bad movie is one that is not the least bit entertaining. A bad movie is bad because it sucks. It's not enjoyable to sit through in the slightest ala Alien Covenant, Death Note, and the recent King Arthur. Back to SW though, let me put it this way, the only bad Star Wars movie is a boring one, and TLJ was not boring.
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Last edited by Dr Kain; 03-11-2018 at 10:37 AM.. |
03-11-2018, 10:48 AM | #49 |
I'm your Huckleberry.
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Taste is subjective though. I liked Covenant and King Arthur so going by you're reasoning if they entertained me then they must be good movies.
Last edited by snake5289; 03-11-2018 at 11:56 AM.. |
03-11-2018, 11:55 AM | #50 |
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NYC
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Yeah, okay. Thats sounds like a really lame (and untrue) generalization made up by people who didn't enjoy the movie and need some rationalization that there are other people who enjoy the thing they dislike.
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