[Greenskar]

YEEEEEEEEES...passionate fanboys (myself included) unite and let your inner geek be heard!

The hell with protesting against Wallstreet, Let's go after two of the biggest fictional 1%'ers in DC and MARVEL right here right now!

I want to apologize if I came off sounding like a dick about sticking to the OP, I only requested it because this is a unique twist of "so n so vs. so n so" that really has my interest and isn't your typical "nu-uh, so n so is immortal and omnipotent...blah blah blah" type of poll.

And I've thought the same question myself more than once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quipp209

N I think we all.read what the thread was about but who cares who can buy who out lol we all wanna c a fight

sure and if you can go convince DC, Marvel and Capcom to make a joint licensing deal that results in Marvel vs DC with a capcom fighting engine...well then the hell with Batman and Iron Man

YOU will be my new hero!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

No challenge. While you're vastly underselling Bruce, Batman, and Waynetech, you're now overselling Ollie. He's a terrible CEO. After running Queen Industries into the ground, he lost his company.
Unlike Bruce, he couldn't balance Family Man Ollie, Public Facade Playboy Billionare Ollie, Humanitarian Ollie, CEO Ollie, and secret vigilante Green Arrow.
He's basically so bad at it that he's lost his company, he lost his city, he lost his fortune, he lost his secret identity, he lost his wife, he lost his son, and he lost his daughter.

So no challenge there. Stark wins.

I don't believe I'm vastly underselling Bruce or waynetech, I believe people are overestimating the public perception of Bruce Wayne, actually. Primarily with all the "batman" arguments. Who the hell knows he's Batman if they're pitching Wayne a huge contract?

While on the other hand, Stark being Iron Man IS public knowledge and he is going to be recognized as the superior inventor to anyone in Wayne Enterprises.

The Bruce I know has never been "known" publicly as an inventor. The Bruce Wayne I know has the public opinion of being an irresponsible, superficial playboy who lives off his family's personal fortune and the profits of Wayne Enterprises (an excerpt from his wiki page that I agree with).

It's also interesting that people bring up Stark's alcoholism when in fact, since perception is everything in business, Bruce pretends to have a drinking problem even though he doesn't really drink alcohol. He creates the public perception that he is the opposite of what makes him so powerful as Batman to throw people off of his track of being his alter ego. But that perception also is what he is believed to be as Bruce and that needs to be considered as well.

Here's where I believe I've gone wrong with my arguments. I work in Program Management in my company, it is my job to win bids for new contracts and negotiate future market share to keep the front end of the business secure, so I know a bit about what is considered in awarding a huge business contract from real life experience. So I'm 100% biased by my real life negotiations and encounters with such a competitive bid. I refuse to accept the attributes associated with "Batman" because I don't believe they hold weight in a contract bid where there is absolutely no knowledge of Batman's ties to Bruce or Wayne Enterprises by those pitching the development contract.

I make my decision for this poll based on the following assumptions and knowledge of Wayne Industries and Bruce Wayne, as well as Stark Industries and Tony Stark, from a purely "Business perspective"

1. I'm assuming this is a defense contract for a technological development that needs to still be designed, prototyped and fully qualified by D.O.D before it can be considered for Mass Production. This is where we stand.

2. Bruce Wayne, due to his masterful acting skills, has convinced me he is half interested in being nothing more than a liaison to the government while he assesses his Technology Division's Engineering capacity to meet the requested specs while he plans his next big getaway. Luckily Fox is there to keep me interested.

Tony, on the other hand, is perhaps the greatest inventor I have ever heard of and is also the superhero known as "Iron Man". If anyone can deliver the prototype on schedule and exceed my expectations its him. I just wish he also didn't know this...that guy's such an arrogant dick.

3. Wayne Steel, Wayne Yards, Wayne Aerospace and Wayne technologies have all manipulated alien technology that has been used in military aircraft and naval warships. They even designed many of the war jets and helicopters for the U.S military. Definitely worth noting for their Superior Manufacturing line.

Stark Industries- The company that manufactures the armor worn by Iron Man and War Machine. It builds the helicarriers used by SHIELD. It produces the quinjets used by the Avengers. Damn, that's a cut above the standard military IMO.

4. I consider Tony Stark to be the superior inventor of whatever needs to be developed. Given his track record.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

@Greenskar

I think you are deliberately underselling Wayne Tech's and Batman's achievements in the business world/ ability to produce technology and overselling Stark in order to make your point.

Realistically, the outcome would be determined by whomever tells the story.

Wayne Tech and Stark Industries both make bids on a defense contract for a friendly country who is in imminent danger and whose protection is of vital importance to the world at large.

The country in question of course goes with Stark at the outset because of his obvious experience in the field, but Bruce doesn't trust Stark and won't go down without a fight.

Oracle hacks into Stark's systems in order to sabotage his efforts publicly so that the country will change its mind.

Cassandra Cain breaks into Stark Industries in order to steal Stark's tech and give Batman an edge.

Nightwing confronts Pepper in order to convince her Wayne Tech should get the contract for the greater good.

Bruce takes the leader of the country out and shows him a good time in an attempt to schmooze him.

Batman breaks into Stark's penthouse and tries to scare him into backing out; this is where the obligatory fight between Batman and Iron Man takes place.

At this point Bruce probably figures out that Iron Man and Stark are one and the same, but it doesn't matter, the country has decided to go with a joint bid submitted by Lexcorp and Oscorp, possibly because of Bruce and Tony's back and forth.

Batman and Iron Man team up to smash Luthor and Osborn. Wayne Tech gets the contract, but Stark Industries builds the actually defensive technology the country will use to protect itself.

Sometimes in the world of business, it isn't who offers the better actual product, but the business man who makes the better pitch. Bruce is a master manipulator, and while Stark may build better technology, Bruce is more persuasive.

So based on everything you just said here's what I learned from your synopsis of how Bruce handles this situation:

1) Bruce Wayne, having no reason for thinking Tony Stark doesn't have America's, let alone the world's, best interest at heart in spite of what he's demonstrated as Iron Man (again which is public knowledge)...That makes Bruce a very paranoid individual. Not a very endearing quality for business.

2) Bruce, suffering from delusional paranoia, decides to break every anti-trust law imaginable and resorts to industrial espionage to shut down any chances Stark has at a fair business opportunity. The repercussions of such a blatantly illegal tactic would be the biggest display of weakness Bruce Wayne has ever subjected himself to and it would send ripples throughout the industry crippling his resources as Batman when he finally decides to fight crime.

3) Bruce Wayne, apparently not satisfied with paranoia and industrial espionage, decides he might as well add "Bribery" to his list of crimes by taking out the head of the country and, as it was so eloquently described, "schmooze" him.

4) Bruce loves his friends so he decides to involve them on his path to prison.

5) Bruce, being delusional and paranoid forgets that he's also schizophrenic and decides Batman must break into another hero's penthouse and therefore provide the final piece to the puzzle that will tie Bruce Wayne's recent crimes to Batman and reveal them to be one in the same and forever tarnishing Batman's legacy. It's at this point Bruce realizes he lost it way back in 1) and should have just negotiated the sub system contract, but it's too late.

Sometimes in the world of business, it's best to consider the legal ramifications of your actions when you embark on such a ridiculous crusade such as the one mentioned above.

Ohhhh, but wait a minute... Bruce's code of Honor and Integrity would NEVER allow him to be that stupid in the first place. He recognizes that the world's safety is what's important and that it doesn't matter who wins that bid for it so long as it secures world safety and therefore asks Stark how he could lend his resources for assistance on this matter that is beyond pettiness.

So clearly what you described wasn't Bruce Wayne, but rather it was an alternate reality where Jason Todd actually controlled Wayne Enterprises. That makes so much more sense. I get it now.

[CLASSIFIED]

Yeah, but you're applying your "real world" knowledge of business to the "fantasy" world of comic books.

I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who has read a lot of comic books, and I just don't see Iron Man going over Batman in an imaginary fight, whether it be physical, or over a defense contract.

Batman has always done things his way, or at least he has since I started reading him back in the 80's, and only recently has he started relying more on his support staff. So from a comic book story telling perspective; he definitely wouldn't go down quietly should Stark win the contract initially.

Batman breaks laws all the time while on his one man war against crime, and should he break every anti-trust law imaginable in his pursuit of what he sees as the greater good, well then so be it. He'll do it and never get caught because he's just that damn good.

As far as your "bribery" comment is concerned; as you've stated; you have "real world" knowledge of how actual business is done, and maybe you don't ever show prospective clients a good time when trying to persuade them to go with you instead of your competitors, but we are talking about the "fake world" of fictional media; and if it has taught us anything it is that all is fair in love and business.

So really it appears that your main arguments against my points are from a literary perspective; almost that the points I'm making aren't invalid, that I simply haven't told them from a literary perspective you find satisfying enough to suspend your disbelief.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Yeah, but you're applying your "real world" knowledge of business to the "fantasy" world of comic books.

I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who has read a lot of comic books, and I just don't see Iron Man going over Batman in an imaginary fight, whether it be physical, or over a defense contract.

Batman has always done things his way, or at least he has since I started reading him back in the 80's, and only recently has he started relying more on his support staff. So from a comic book story telling perspective; he definitely wouldn't go down quietly should Stark win the contract initially.

Batman breaks laws all the time while on his one man war against crime, and should he break every anti-trust law imaginable in his pursuit of what he sees as the greater good, well then so be it. He'll do it and never get caught because he's just that damn good.

As far as your "bribery" comment is concerned; as you've stated; you have "real world" knowledge of how actual business is done, and maybe you don't ever show prospective clients a good time when trying to persuade them to go with you instead of your competitors, but we are talking about the "fake world" of fictional media; and if it has taught us anything it is that all is fair in love and business.

So really it appears that your main arguments against my points are from a literary perspective; almost that the points I'm making aren't invalid, that I simply haven't told them from a literary perspective you find satisfying enough to suspend your disbelief.

Didn't I state that I was biased by my knowledge of business in the real world? I don't deny that. But just because one writer, who's lack of expertise in the field, can create a loop hole around the system for Batman or Iron Man does not absolve your scenario. Sorry but it just doesn't.

The scenario you created is not in Batman's character for something of this nature. He has no motive to suspect foul play on Stark's behalf. You were really reaching to pull a win for a character you are obviously deeply passionate about, and I enjoy that quality about you (the character passion part). If we aren't passionate about our favorite characters then we won't hold the writers of their stories to such high standards that produce good stories.


But again, I love Batman. The Batman I know and Love isn't going to be that damn shady over a development contract. And you still refuse to consider that no one else knows he's Batman.

Instead, what I see happening is a threat so grand in scale that Tony Stark, after being approached by Batman, who is measuring Stark's integrity, finally see's the benefit of a temporary joint partnership that results in:

The most powerful Batman armor ever created from Stark Technology. In fact this armor is so powerful that Batman becomes one the most powerful heroes of all time, finally more than "just a man". This armor is further enhanced by Wayne's many different resources, and while grateful for Stark's assistance, no longer needs Stark's help.

This inspired me so much actually, that I'm going to pitch this to Symbiote later and ask him to create a Tony Stark inspired "Batman" armor!

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Didn't I state that I was biased by my knowledge of business in the real world? I don't deny that. But just because one writer, who's lack of expertise in the field, can create a loop hole around the system for Batman or Iron Man does not absolve your scenario. Sorry but it just doesn't.

The scenario you created is not in Batman's character for something of this nature. He has no motive to suspect foul play on Stark's behalf. You were really reaching to pull a win for a character you are obviously deeply passionate about, and I enjoy that quality about you (the character passion part). If we aren't passionate about our favorite characters then we won't hold the writers of their stories to such high standards that produce good stories.


But again, I love Batman. The Batman I know and Love isn't going to be that damn shady over a development contract. And you still refuse to consider that no one else knows he's Batman.

Instead, what I see happening is a threat so grand in scale that Tony Stark, after being approached by Batman, who is measuring Stark's integrity, finally see's the benefit of a temporary joint partnership that results in:

The most powerful Batman armor ever created from Stark Technology. In fact this armor is so powerful that Batman becomes one the most powerful heroes of all time, finally more than "just a man". This armor is further enhanced by Wayne's many different resources, and while grateful for Stark's assistance, no longer needs Stark's help.

This inspired me so much actually, that I'm going to pitch this to Symbiote later and ask him to create a Tony Stark inspired "Batman" armor!

Congratulations, you win.

[Crazy Jetty]

@ Greenskar
I actually don't entirely disagree with you. In fact, mine was the first responce in this thread, and I did say when it comes to the Business aspect, Tony has the upper hand.

Dispite your very well thought out reasons, I just think you're underselling Bruce and co.
It's true that since no one knows Bruce is the bat, they can't wave Batman's tech as what they're capable. They can't say "Here's the JLA Watchtower, we're responcible for the tech behind this. Here's the Batwing, the world's stealthiest jet." since these are covertactivities.
But one thing so many people overlook, is that most of Batman's tech is based on Waynetech prototypes and designs. They don't have exactly what Batman has, but they do have simular tech in their files.
But do I think they'd win a contract over Stark? Maybe. Depending on the contract. Some they have an upperhand, as Waynetech is far more branching than Stark. But in the main kind of contract most people are talking about (Defence technology I'll say, because neither company is interested in arming anyone with guns), I do think Stark has the upper hand. Largely because he has far more pizzaz, and his company's greatest achievements are on display.
But ultimately, as far as tech goes, almost all of Batman's gear is based on existing Waynetech prototypes and blueprints. While they can't say "Here's the Batplane!" They can say "We have a prototype of a 6th Generation stealth jet." I think would indeed show off stuff like that to impress whomever they're trying to impress.

I also agree that I don't think Wayne, Fox, or Waynetech would do anything so super shadey just to win a contract over Stark Industries, as has been suggested.

And more in general, for those who say there's no way Batman could realistically take Ironman, and that Batman has been overinflated and is now a Mary Sue?
I disagree. Here's why:
Batman's true "superpower" is he has one of the steepest and fastest learning curves in all comics. Something everyone tends to forget, Batman usually loses in his first few encounters with a new foe.
Hell, quite often his old familier foes get the upperhand over him, in confrontations.
So the first time Batman and Ironman butted heads, of course Batman would lose. Batman has absolutely no hope. But, Tony doesn't kill, and I don't think there's absolutely any way Ironman has to capture and contain Batman that Bruce couldn't get out of. So it's a given that Batman would get away from their encounter.
But this is indeed where Ironman's connection to Stark would be a disadvantage. It means researching him would be easy. (Assuming this is a continuity where Ironman's identity is still secret) Bruce would eventually put two and two together and figure out his identity. And then he'd start trying to figure out the chinks in the Ironman armor. It may take a few tries, but I think Batman would eventually have no problem overcoming Tony's armor.

Ultimately, I think it would end with the two coming to an understanding. Basically that Batman thinks Ironman should get out of Gotham.

If this were a Civil War type senerio, then I think Batman would be Tony's most dangerous foe. Batman would employ his full Bat Family, and be in total ninja mode.

[trebleshot]

So, as Greenskar has stated, Tony would pretty much be the hands-down winner, given this thread's original scenerio.

@CLASSIFIED
Ok, if Bruce is allowed to bring his "family" in on this battle, then why can't Tony? Oh, yeah, because it would devolve into an ever-excalating arms race between both sides which ends with Mr. Myxzptlk and Franklin Richards rebooting both Universes because "they're no fun anymore."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

And more in general, for those who say there's no way Batman could realistically take Ironman, and that Batman has been overinflated and is now a Mary Sue?
I disagree. Here's why:
Batman's true "superpower" is he has one of the steepest and fastest learning curves in all comics. Something everyone tends to forget, Batman usually loses in his first few encounters with a new foe.
Hell, quite often his old familier foes get the upperhand over him, in confrontations.
So the first time Batman and Ironman butted heads, of course Batman would lose. Batman has absolutely no hope. But, Tony doesn't kill, and I don't think there's absolutely any way Ironman has to capture and contain Batman that Bruce couldn't get out of. So it's a given that Batman would get away from their encounter.

By this, you're assuming there would be more than one encounter? Tony has killed before when he had to. But even if Iron Man won't kill him, that doesn't mean he'd simply let Bruce walk (or limp) away. He'd throw his ass in Prison 42 for being a highly-skilled loony in tights.

Of course, if you want to debate Bruce's ability to break out of Prison 42 or any other Marvel Supervillain prison, we can start a different thread....

Quote:

But this is indeed where Ironman's connection to Stark would be a disadvantage. It means researching him would be easy. (Assuming this is a continuity where Ironman's identity is still secret) Bruce would eventually put two and two together and figure out his identity. And then he'd start trying to figure out the chinks in the Ironman armor. It may take a few tries, but I think Batman would eventually have no problem overcoming Tony's armor.

Ok, so we're running with the idea of multiple encounters between the two heroes. Adding to that, the fact that after numerous failures, Bruce has become obsessed with taking Tony down anyway. This is starting to sound like a fan-fic crossover instead of a one-off showdown.

You're also assuming that Bruce would consistantly be facing the same armor over and over. So what if Bruce has a exceptionally steep learning curve? So does Tony. He is a futurist, after all.

Quote:

Ultimately, I think it would end with the two coming to an understanding. Basically that Batman thinks Ironman should get out of Gotham.

Who said this fight would take place in Gotham?

(I'm just being contrarian on this point)

Quote:

If this were a Civil War type senerio, then I think Batman would be Tony's most dangerous foe. Batman would employ his full Bat Family, and be in total ninja mode.

I honestly think Bruce would be on Tony's side, if there were a Civil War-type event that spanned both universes. Bruce already keeps files on everyone with or without their consent. How much of a leap would it be for him to publically promote registration as law?

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

I honestly think Bruce would be on Tony's side, if there were a Civil War-type event that spanned both universes. Bruce already keeps files on everyone with or without their consent. How much of a leap would it be for him to publically promote registration as law?

I don't think Bruce would be on either side. I mean, he's the exact sort of thing Tony was trying to put a stop to. So I don't think that would get them off on the best foot, seeing eye to eye. I think if there were a Civil War type event in play, Batman would be a rogue agent. He beyond anyone understands the need for secret identities. He may be for the registration, but I don't think he'd unmask himself, or want certain identities to get leaked out.

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

I don't think Bruce would be on either side. I mean, he's the exact sort of thing Tony was trying to put a stop to. So I don't think that would get them off on the best foot, seeing eye to eye. I think if there were a Civil War type event in play, Batman would be a rogue agent. He beyond anyone understands the need for secret identities. He may be for the registration, but I don't think he'd unmask himself, or want certain identities to get leaked out.

You have a point there. I can totally see him starting a third faction. Maybe Spidey would have joined him instead of signing up with Cap after his falling out with Tony.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Congratulations, you win.

Batman: Arkham City is out at retail. We all win.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

I don't think Bruce would be on either side. I mean, he's the exact sort of thing Tony was trying to put a stop to. So I don't think that would get them off on the best foot, seeing eye to eye. I think if there were a Civil War type event in play, Batman would be a rogue agent. He beyond anyone understands the need for secret identities. He may be for the registration, but I don't think he'd unmask himself, or want certain identities to get leaked out.

I definitely agree with this and you made some wonderful points in your other post. I agree that the type of contract certainly determines the outcome. If you want a contract to develop and mass produce stealth jets to the government Wayne Steel takes this. Wayne biotech is also worth mentioning for government related contracts.

This is why I felt the need to state my assumptions going into the bid review.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Batman: Arkham City is out at retail. We all win.

I don't play a lot of video games.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

I don't play a lot of video games.

All that told me is that you aren't beyond playing them. If you ever play another...make it that one

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

All that told me is that you aren't beyond playing them. If you ever play another...make it that one

I played the first one, got to a part I couldn't get by, got bored, and put it away.

I just don't have enough time to devote to a game between work, kids, girlfriend, school, upkeep of the house, and posting on the Ark.

But if I ever do, I will try Arkham City.

[scottmurdock]

Punch to the chest...donezo! Lol. Great thread.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottmurdock

Punch to the chest...donezo! Lol. Great thread.

I don't think Batman could defeat Iron Man with just one punch to his chest, his armor would protect him.

[deadpool]

I was just telling my friend today that they are the same.
Rich and dead parents.

[behindthemask]

Hand to hand Batman. In their suts IronMan. Common repulsar blasts vs a bat-a-rang lol. But strip off the suit of armour and batman would kick the shit out of him.

[Greenskar]

Interestingly enough, the actors who play these guys on screen are worth mentioning. Christian Bale leaves most of the fight scenes and stunts to his stunt double because he doesn't like to get hurt. But made his stunt double stand down for the scene where he is on thd edge of the Sears tower.

Robert Downey Jr apparently studied Wing Chung pretty seriously to get his life together and apparently it helped him get back in the movies. Wonder if he'd kick Chris Bale's ass in a scrap, lol.

[gogorobo]

being a total batfan a gotta say bruce, even though tony runs most of the day to day of either stark enterprises, international, or solutions, bruces playboy facade hides the fact that he is very invovled in the running of his company and would find a way to come out in front of tony, i mean look at no man's land he found a way to undermine luthor while still making it seem that bruce was "vacationing"

[bmorr]

not sure if this was posted yet, bruce wayne dons a iron man suit to fight inque:

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmorr

not sure if this was posted yet, bruce wayne dons a iron man suit to fight inque:

Yeah I remember that episode. I loved the Batman Beyond cartoon! Considering how Bruce was getting handled by that villain even while wearing the armor, I don't think that holds a candle to something Tony wears. But that isn't Batman's thing anyway. He has plenty of other "toys" to work with.

[CLASSIFIED]

Bale's muscles are buffer in Begins than Bob's were in Iron Man.

[Greenskar]

What does that have to do with being able to actually fight? In an article of Men's Journal it was quoted by his trainer that RDJ can actually scrap.

[Greenskar]

There's only one true way to solve this...CELEBRITY DEATH MATCH!! Make it happen.

[Crazy Jetty]

Why can't Capcom get the rights to make a Marvel vs DC game?
Why can't these two companies just get along???
In their bitter bitter battles, we're the ones who truely lose. And now that Disney owns Marvel, the legal redtape is only gonna get worse.