[Black Arbor]

The only Total Heroes figure I'm excited for is the upcoming Mr. Freeze. His suit looks great, and I'll be happy to finally buy a Freeze that isn't just that repainted DC Superheroes one. Seriously, they repainted that thing, like, four or five times!

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

Putting the debate over one's personal choice in lexicon (specifically as it pertains to "collectors") to the side...I tend to agree with 305Batman's general premise...I am in a state of utter consternation at Total Heroes selling (at all, let alone well).

Eh, people buy all kinds of stuff that makes no sense to me. The trick is not to dwell on it. Just do what I do: shrug your shoulders, say "Not for me" and move on. So what if some people out there like Total Heroes and you don't?

Quote:

I will be entirely honest, I hope for the failure of this line. My reasoning is that the sooner the TH line fails...the sooner the return of DC Universe.

I think that may be the root of your consternation. You are making a false assumption. You seem to be under the impression that TH and DCUC are somehow connected, but the reality is those two lines have nothing in common beyond being 6"-scale DC toy lines made by Mattel. The fate of one does not determine the fate of the other. You can be spiteful and wish for TH to fail if you want, but its failure will not bring back DCUC.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Just do what I do: shrug your shoulders, say "Not for me" and move on. So what if some people out there like Total Heroes and you don't?

Yes, I'm cognizant of the depth and breadth of "collectable interests" out there. I'm not poo-poo'ing that at all. My issue is with the toy line, not those that buy its offerings.

Many a DC Universe/Superhero fig. enthusiast has offered complaint (on this very site and most other "toy-centric" forums) about the re-use of "bucks" in the Mattel line (any line really, but Mattel abused this more than the average 6" scale producer-- and yes, I understand why companies do this, but it doesn't prevent the phenomenon from being a "flaw", "blemish", or whatever pejorative you want to use...). As a fan, I couldn't really gripe with complaints of this kind given that the lack of buck variety was undeniable. Some people might even point to this fact as a possible reason for diminished interest in the line as time plodded on...who really knows? I don't crunch numbers; my math skills aren't that great and I'm no actuary or statistician.

When I look at the Total Heroes line, I see the potential for the same "buck-abuse" (damn, I coined a term right there) with one additional (huge) problem. The sculpts are not very impressive (I'm expressing this as nicely as I can). With the DC Universe, yes, we were often getting the same arms/legs/torsos...but at least the sculpts were impressive. When there was variety, it was a thing to behold. Total Heroes, IMO (internet caveat alert! lol does it even need to be said anymore?), will have all the failings of DC Universe (repetitive sculpts/multi-Bats/Multi-Supes) and be an "ugly-duckling" to boot. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think we can all agree that the aesthetic ceiling is considerably lower with this franchise. Its early yet with TH (maybe it will "swan-out"), but with a focus on a younger audience and Tonka-toy(like) designs...I don't see being surprised that TH is selling as a "stretch."

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

You are making a false assumption. You seem to be under the impression that TH and DCUC are somehow connected, but the reality is those two lines have nothing in common beyond being 6"-scale DC toy lines made by Mattel. The fate of one does not determine the fate of the other. You can be spiteful and wish for TH to fail if you want, but its failure will not bring back DCUC.

I respect that you are a moderator here, which may make you privy to more of the back-room conversations and gossip/rumors revolving around these companies (although, I have noticed at times, your comments seem to be just as "in the dark" as our own lamentations...at least as it regards when things are coming out). Having said that, I don't believe that these lines are as mutually exclusive as you maintain them to be (unless of course, you have some inside information or journalistic-quotes to share...)

I'm no MBA, but I am well aware of the power of the "wallet." "Buying power" is the only language that makes companies listen. Historically, in America, we have seen the power boycotts (I'm not suggesting this for Mattel) can bring to bear on corporations...industries even. What you call "spite" on my part, is a cold and calculated leveraging tool to me. Obviously, I can't predict exactly what Mattel might do if TH tanks. But like nature, the "market" abhors a vacuum. With a fresh black-eye from a failed TH line, Mattel executives will naturally try to fill the gap. Companies in general don't like to re-invent the wheel (ever wonder why McDonald's and Burger Kings are often near each other?--Whomever came second never needs to re-do the research on whether their business will thrive because the fore-runners have already proven there is a market in that location by virtue of simply being there) and with a ready made fan-base of DC Universe collectors, retuning to said line is not so far fetched. And similar to what I mentioned about the fast food franchises, Hasbro and Marvel Legends have proven that you can indeed go back to your ex-lover and reignite that old flame....the same could easily be true for Mattel and DC Universe.

Hey look, I'm not trying to be contentious with any of this. I'm old enough to remember when pet rocks were sold in stores. If you want to buy rocks (not a diss of TH, just an allusion to "My Pet Rock" collectors)!?! Knock yourself out! I'm (as is everyone) entitled to my opinions....and as much as I like Marvel Legends/DC Universe toys, I also enjoy greatly the freedom to express my opinions/takes/and desires about the direction of these toys (and the lines they are part of) on forums like this one.

[Black Arbor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

Yes, I'm cognizant of the depth and breadth of "collectable interests" out there. I'm not poo-poo'ing that at all. My issue is with the toy line, not those that buy its offerings.

Many a DC Universe/Superhero fig. enthusiast has offered complaints (on this very site and most other "toy-centric" forums) about the re-use of "bucks" in the Mattel line (any line really, but Mattel abused this more than the average 6" scale producer-- and yes, I understand why companies do this, but it doesn't prevent the phenomenon from being a "flaw", "blemish", or whatever pejorative you want to use...). As a fan, I couldn't really gripe with complaints of this kind given that the lack of buck variety was undeniable. Some people might even point to this fact as a possible reason for diminished interest in the line as time plodded on...who really knows? I don't crunch numbers; my math skills aren't that great and I'm no actuary or statistician.

When I look at the Total Heroes line, I see the potential for the same "buck-abuse" (damn, I coined a term right there) with one additional (huge) problem. The sculpts are not very impressive (I'm expressing this as nicely as I can). With the DC Universe, yes, we were often getting the same arms/legs/torsos...but at least the sculpts were impressive. When there was variety, it was a thing to behold. Total Heroes, IMO (internet caveat alert! lol does it even need to be said anymore?), will have all the failings of DC Universe (repetitive sculpts/multi-Bats/Multi-Supes) and be an "ugly-duckling" to boot. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think we can all agree that the aesthetic ceiling is considerably lower with this franchise. Its early yet with TH (maybe it will "swan-out"), but with a focus on a younger audience and Tonka-toy(like) designs...I don't see being surprised that TH is selling as a "stretch."




I respect that you are a moderator here, which may make you privy to more of the back-room conversations and gossip/rumors revolving around these companies (although, I have noticed at times, your comments seem to be just as "in the dark" as our own lamentations...at least as it regards when things are coming out). Having said that, I don't believe that these lines are as mutually exclusive as you maintain them to be (unless of course, you have some inside information or journalistic-quotes to share...)

I'm no MBA, but I am well aware of the power of the "wallet." "Buying power" is the only language that makes companies listen. Historically, in America, we have seen the power boycotts (I'm not suggesting this for Mattel) can bring to bear on corporations...industries even. What you call "spite" on my part, is a cold and calculated leveraging tool to me. Obviously, I can't predict exactly what Mattel might do if TH tanks. But like nature, the "market" abhors a vacuum. With a fresh black-eye from a failed TH line, Mattel executives will naturally try to fill the gap. Companies in general don't like to re-invent the wheel (ever wonder why McDonald's and Burger Kings are often near each other?--Whomever came second never needs to re-do the research on whether their business will thrive because the fore-runners have already proven there is a market in that location by virtue of simply being there) and with a ready made fan-base of DC Universe collectors, retuning to said line is not so far fetched. And similar to what I mentioned about the fast food franchises, Hasbro and Marvel Legends have proven that you can indeed go back to your ex-lover and reignite that old flame....the same could easily be true for Mattel and DC Universe.

Hey look, I'm not trying to be contentious with any of this. I'm old enough to remember when pet rocks were sold in stores. If you want to buy rocks (not a diss of TH, just an allusion to "My Pet Rock" collectors)!?! Knock yourself out! I'm (as is everyone) entitled to my opinions....and as much as I like Marvel Legends/DC Universe toys, I also enjoy greatly the freedom to express my opinions/takes/and desires about the direction of these toys (and the lines they are part of) on forums like this one.

Very well said, and as you say, I think the "Triumphant Return of Marvel Legends" or whatever they called it proves that a company can always breathe new life into a dormant/dead line.

[Dr Kain]

Holy crap, I didn't know you guys were building the Knight's Watch wall today. I would have helped.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Black Arbor:
Thanks for sharing the sentiment with me about holding out hope for DCUC! I can totally dig that my original statement of "I hope for the failure of x to get y" is extreme....but that is how I feel. My feeling that way or saying as much isn't going to halt TH production...if only I were that powerful!

I like both MLegends and DUniverse and have I heard far worse from fans on either side about the competing lines. Although I'm a "fan", there is no personal investment in the matter for the "companies" themselves.....its just about the figures. If someone says something disparaging about something I like, I believe there is enough space in this "community of collecting" that the two veiw-points can coexist.

Dr. Kain:
lol yeah, I think I over did it....I hope I don't get banned and sent "beyond the wall!"

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

Yes, I'm cognizant of the depth and breadth of "collectable interests" out there. I'm not poo-poo'ing that at all. My issue is with the toy line, not those that buy its offerings.

That's not quite what I was getting at with my suggestion. You said yourself that you're dismayed that the line is selling. I made a logical assumption that you're feeling that way because you don't like TH and cannot understand why anyone else would like them.

I was simply suggesting that situations like that happen all the time and not to waste too much time/energy focusing on the fact that TH is a success at retail.

For example, I don't know why anyone would buy Equestrian Girls dolls. I think they look like crap. But apparently they are selling well in spite of my opinion, so I just accept that fact and move on with life. My daughter's even into the EG show now, so I might end up buying some of those same dolls for her at some point.

Quote:

I respect that you are a moderator here, which may make you privy to more of the back-room conversations and gossip/rumors revolving around these companies (although, I have noticed at times, your comments seem to be just as "in the dark" as our own lamentations...at least as it regards when things are coming out). Having said that, I don't believe that these lines are as mutually exclusive as you maintain them to be (unless of course, you have some inside information or journalistic-quotes to share...)

No inside information on my part. Just drawing on years of experience following the business-side of this industry. The way I read your statement, it sounded like you were expressing a cause-and-effect relationship between TH and DCUC. If/when TH fails at retail, Mattel would immediately revisit DCUC.

I maintain that is not the case. One, TH is a retail line and DCUC stopped being one years ago. Two, as Mattel has stated several times in their Q&A sessions, the retail team and the Mattycollector team are separate divisions within Mattel.

Based on those two facts, I conclude that the failure of TH would not bring back DCUC. In fact, I believe it's much more likely to have the opposite effect and cause Mattel to drop 6" DC toys completely in favor of smaller lines like DCMV and Batman.

Quote:

What you call "spite" on my part, is a cold and calculated leveraging tool to me.

You want Mattel to fail so that they will realize they made a mistake by taking DCUC away and rush to bring it back. How else would you have me describe that?

I mean no disrespect or ill will. But to me, that sounds fairly vindictive.

Quote:

Obviously, I can't predict exactly what Mattel might do if TH tanks. But like nature, the "market" abhors a vacuum. With a fresh black-eye from a failed TH line, Mattel executives will naturally try to fill the gap.

You are also assuming that Mattel execs would believe that there is still a market left to tap after TH. What if they decide 6" DC toys are no longer profitable enough to continue in any form?

Quote:

And similar to what I mentioned about the fast food franchises, Hasbro and Marvel Legends have proven that you can indeed go back to your ex-lover and reignite that old flame....the same could easily be true for Mattel and DC Universe.

Keep in mind, Hasbro stopped making 6" Marvel figures completely for a while before ROML debuted. Same thing happens with fast food chains and some of their specialty items. It may be years before demand builds back up enough for Mattel to try DCUC-style figures again.

Hasbro also never went to a subscription-only service when ML began failing at retail.

Don't misunderstand: I do think that the ROML is a great example to use as a beacon of hope for disappointed DCUC fans. But Mattel is not Hasbro. Just because Hasbro brought back something successfully, doesn't mean Mattel can (or will) do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

lol yeah, I think I over did it....I hope I don't get banned and sent "beyond the wall!"

I would never be that petty simply because someone held a different opinion than mine.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Trebleshot:
I'm going to make a departure from the “quotes system” in an effort to truncate this a bit...and to avoid any acrimony that might get attached to what could be viewed as a tit for tat.

Let me start by saying I was joking about being banned. I didn't really believe you would lash out at me. Humor is subjective and glib statements don't always carry well over internet comment sections. “Banned” was a vehicle for humor aimed at the “Game of Thrones” reference of another poster. It was a foil for me to get to a “beyond the wall” reference....a somewhat clumsy foil, but foil nonetheless.

I hear your points. The only differences I take are with what I perceive as an attempt to disabuse me of my belief that DC Universe could make a return years from now and a characterization of my “wanting a line to end” as being emotionally charged (spiteful or vindictive).

I do respect your years of experience of following the business side and I'm not challenging why you arrive at the conclusions you do. Rather, I'm expressing that your take is no more or less valid than that of other consumers. We all have experience in collecting and being fans. While reviewing corporate-speak (which is often purposely misleading and rarely transparent – that's just the nature of business) at PR events is a reasonable way to predict the future, intuition and watching historical trends in the industry are probably equally accurate at “fortune-telling” these toys. I get that you want offer knowledge on the industry, but the risk that's run is seeming pedantic or heavy handed. When its all said and done, these toy lines cycle back and forth all the time.....Joes, Transformers, Lengeds, and Universe.

About my expressed want to see the end of what I view as a filler-line, meh, its an opinion and that's what you find on forums. I initially offered my first post as support for another person who expressed similar sentiments of confusion at reports of TH “selling out” (I would be very interested in sales metrics for this line- selling out?). The reason I posted support for that ark'er was due to the long list of chiding posts that seemed to cow him. He wasn't offensive. He wasn't demonstrative or rude. He just asked a question. Although my comment went further, I also was not rude or overly offensive. You mentioned my “dismay” at TH selling, which I'm assuming you got from my use of the word “consternation”. Dismay is one meaning for consternation. Another is perturbed, which is much more innocuous. Anyway, I can want something to end and have that want not represent vitriol or animus. I want Fox to hurry up and fail with the the next FF movie. I also want Sony to do the same with Spiderman (3?). I want these things not because I hate Fox, Sony, FF, or Spiderman. I want these things because once they realize they can't make money off the franchise then the license will return to Marvel and Marvel Studios. This opinion is not unlike (in disposition that is) my opinion of TH (I'm actually ok with Mattel having the lic for DC). If I had to attach an emotive label to my opinion it'd be closer to indifference.

My overall point is I'm going to voice my opinions and defend them. I see no problem with anyone doing that, provided they are respectful. And.....I failed badly at shortening this response....LOL

[JangonateTK421]

Expecting Freeze and Bizarro from Amazon by Wednesday. Pretty excited for more Total Heroes after the Luthor 3 pack. I've had the DC Superheroes Luthor forever and this one is so much better. Interested to see what we find out at SDCC. I also wanna figure out how Manta sold out so fast and I missed him!

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

My overall point is I'm going to voice my opinions and defend them. I see no problem with anyone doing that, provided they are respectful. And.....I failed badly at shortening this response....LOL

I have no problem with that, either. I was doing the same thing, although my opinions obviously differ from yours. If you believe that DCUC will come back once TH is gone, then more power to you. I disagree.

[Nymesys Prime]

ok so after the long drawn out discussion which proved to be interesting no less...is TH bizarre and John stewart ect still coming out or did I miss something?
I like my TH figures just hate that asinine TRU 14.99 price tag

[Ravenxl7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nymesys Prime

ok so after the long drawn out discussion which proved to be interesting no less...is TH bizarre and John stewart ect still coming out or did I miss something?
I like my TH figures just hate that asinine TRU 14.99 price tag

Bizarro is in the new wave that's just starting to show up at retail, and Stewart was a MattyCollector exclusive (part of the Green Lantern Corps set). I want to say that the set has already been released, but I'm not entirely sure.

[TheBlueMarvel]

I saw them both on eBay, but you'll be paying more than $14.99...

Not that I have an investment in the line, but its troubling that the prices are steadily rising. $79.00 is the high I've seen for Cyborg and Mr. Freeze. Additionally, $39.00 for John Stewart (not of the daily show persuasion) and Black Manta. I'm guessing those are SDCC prices? Or eBay inflation? or both...

Edit: just checked TH on eBay again from lowest to highest and their prices are all over the place (as usual)....eBay is probably not the way to go. If its not a price gouge, its a ship gouge....

[JangonateTK421]

Amazon has had Freeze and Bizarro up for $11.99. Don't worry about Cyborg right now. Wait and pick him up on Mattycollector.com after the show for cheaper than eBay prices.

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenxl7

Bizarro is in the new wave that's just starting to show up at retail, and Stewart was a MattyCollector exclusive (part of the Green Lantern Corps set). I want to say that the set has already been released, but I'm not entirely sure.

Both the GL set and Black Manta were released on Matty's site a couple months ago and have since sold out.

[Nymesys Prime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JangonateTK421

Amazon has had Freeze and Bizarro up for $11.99. Don't worry about Cyborg right now. Wait and pick him up on Mattycollector.com after the show for cheaper than eBay prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Both the GL set and Black Manta were released on Matty's site a couple months ago and have since sold out.

That sucks. I actually liked this line but the prices are outfreakinrageous...BM set is like 75 bucks on Amazon...
35 for bizaro and 40 for freeze?? really??
if they continue to be hard to locate I may have to drop this line

[JangonateTK421]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nymesys Prime

That sucks. I actually liked this line but the prices are outfreakinrageous...BM set is like 75 bucks on Amazon...
35 for bizaro and 40 for freeze?? really??
if they continue to be hard to locate I may have to drop this line

Don't panicking just yet. Bizarro and Freeze just started to show up. I'm sure it won't be too long before places like Amazon have them in for close to $10 on a more regular basis. Also, if you find them at TRU price match.

Maybe Manta will pop up on mattycollector again, but who knows. If he does, I'm not going to wait to snatch him up this time.

[Nymesys Prime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JangonateTK421

Don't panicking just yet. Bizarro and Freeze just started to show up. I'm sure it won't be too long before places like Amazon have them in for close to $10 on a more regular basis. Also, if you find them at TRU price match.

Maybe Manta will pop up on mattycollector again, but who knows. If he does, I'm not going to wait to snatch him up this time.

oh I have learned to be patient...hate exclusives though...the shipping on Matty a freakin joke though...but Kmarts and a few Walmarts usually have TH for 9.99...so we shall see

[Dr Kain]

So... anyone seen any place allow you preorder Doomsday yet?

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

So... anyone seen any place allow you preorder Doomsday yet?

eBay has a bunch up. The lowest is $35(bid based)and the highest is $95 (pffft?!?!).

I have got one coming through a connect that I acquired via last year's SDCC (got that Legends: T-bolts) . I'm getting the Doomsday and the Legends: Thanos Imperative set. Pretty psyched!

[CMIII]

I have been quite Busy as of Late due to Holiday, Pet/House sitting 2 weeks straight, and life in general... I think a bit of the reason people are so upset about the Total Heroes is the fact that Mattel (the Wondeful Mr. N) has been treating the Total Heroes Line as the DCUC replacement and using logic that doesn't make any sense. When on the Shelf next to the Total heroes are the Marvel Legends and Mash Up's lines by (Hasbro) are being sold at the same time. Mattel acts as if the Customers are stupid or something and we do not see this. I do believe the Management at Mattel is in danger of getting walking papers. I will say that the Fan forum is going to finally show Scott how the "Fans" feel for him.

[Tiberius]

Mattel needs to stop trying to make toys for collectors. The new DCC Designer series... DCC looks strong for the future. Mattel CANNOT top the articulation, packaging and detail of the Designer Series.

Images removed. Please do not steal bandwidth. Host the images yourself using a free service like Photobucket, Imgur or even your Toyark account - Toyark Staff.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Mattel needs to stop trying to make toys for collectors. The new DCC Designer series... DCC looks strong for the future. Mattel CANNOT top the articulation, packaging and detail of the Designer Series.

I cannot disagree at all with your claim that the DCC Designer Series has superior sculpts to Mattel's DCUC. I also think their (DCC) sculpts exceed most Legends figs. Unlike Mattel and Hasbro's wares, DCC sports unique sculpts for all the figures they craft(at least the ones I've seen). I just wish the Designer series was in 6" scale rather than 7".

My DCUC's and Legends fit damn near perfectly together. Not to mention, I'm in so deep on both collections that I can't see transitioning away to something else. However, I agree that DCC is greater than DCUC. I think the magnitude of superiority is comparable to the gulf between DCUC and TH.....

[Black Arbor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

I cannot disagree at all with your claim that the DCC Designer Series has superior sculpts to Mattel's DCUC. I also think their (DCC) sculpts exceed most Legends figs. Unlike Mattel and Hasbro's wares, DCC sports unique sculpts for all the figures they craft(at least the ones I've seen). I just wish the Designer series was in 6" scale rather than 7".

My DCUC's and Legends fit damn near perfectly together. Not to mention, I'm in so deep on both collections that I can't see transitioning away to something else. However, I agree that DCC is greater than DCUC. I think the magnitude of superiority is comparable to the gulf between DCUC and TH.....

Well, the nice thing about some DC Direct/ Collectibles figures is that you can fudge 'em into a display pretty easily. For example, I have the Greg Capullo style Riddler in my DCUC cabinet, but Nygma's always been a tall guy to me, so it doesn't really stand out too bad. Then there's the deluxe sized figures, like the Arkham Grundy, Titan Joker, Clayface and Killer Croc, and the Infinite Crisis Mongul, that are supposed to be gigantic guys. Heck, with some futzing (or maybe a flying pose if it's a flying character) you could probably put any DCC figure in your DCUC! the only nit I have is the varying artistic styles, but that's just one'a those things...

[Dr Kain]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Mattel needs to stop trying to make toys for collectors. The new DCC Designer series... DCC looks strong for the future. Mattel CANNOT top the articulation, packaging and detail of the Designer Series.

Images removed. Please do not steal bandwidth. Host the images yourself using a free service like Photobucket, Imgur or even your Toyark account - Toyark Staff.

Too bad they are all N52 stuff. I wish DCC would just start doing a subline on classic characters with the new articulation.

However, I disagree with them being better than the Classics line. The eyes on those Earth 2 figures look terrible. WW and Luthor look bug eyed. At least their quality of plastic seems to be improving.