[Jason Abbadon]

I hated that annual- it made him into a petty thug- completely contradicting 40 years of backstory on him.
Total shit art too- why does marvel let artists "ink" their own stuff with a freakin magic marker?!? It always looks flat and crappy- all the lines being the same thickness gives the book an unprofessional look.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

I hated that annual- it made him into a petty thug- completely contradicting 40 years of backstory on him.
Total shit art too- why does marvel let artists "ink" their own stuff with a freakin magic marker?!? It always looks flat and crappy- all the lines being the same thickness gives the book an unprofessional look.

Ya know, this is starting to sound much like my recent complaint about kids and their music today. We're just getting old and all these new stories are just "noise" to some of us, lol.

Seriously it doesn't even make sense to apply many of the 40 plus years of history to a character who has clearly been through cold war times all the way to post 9/11 and somehow still looks 35 at most even though I thought he looked 45 back in the Demon in a bottle story ark.

Characters need to evolve with the times and in some cases need to be rebooted for a new audience if the business is to survive.

I still don't think it justifies a crappy story, but considering I've encountered more people who really enjoyed invincible Iron Man, especially the annual, I'd say its all a matter of perspective. Granted many of these readers I've encountered through the cons or LCS are also comic fans who were never interested in Tony until after the movie with RDJ. Several of them even confided that they tried to read the famed demon in a bottle story and gave up after issue 122 because the writing and artwork of the 80's just straight up bored them (yes I know, blasphemy right?)

Truth is, like it or not, Tony has never been more popular than he is right now. Its also in a time where its never been more popular to be douchebag given the rise in reality TV stars in pop culture. Speaks volumes about modern American society these days.

[Kaewin]

I loved the old eighties stuff. I was rebuilding my collection and I picked up where Stane took over Stark. Good read, now I need to get the rest up to 200.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaewin

I loved the old eighties stuff. I was rebuilding my collection and I picked up where Stane took over Stark. Good read, now I need to get the rest up to 200.

I loved the old 80's stuff too, I'm also a guy who grew up in the 80's. If you're under 30 and enjoy the classics, good for you. They deserve to be read and appreciated by newer generations of fans.

[Kaewin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

I loved the old 80's stuff too, I'm also a guy who grew up in the 80's. If you're under 30 and enjoy the classics, good for you. They deserve to be read and appreciated by newer generations of fans.

Nope like you I'm from the eighties too. Those were great stories back then. I know some were real corny but they were good.

I have Marvel Masterworks Iron Man and they have great stuff in it. Of course some that stuff was funny though.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaewin

Nope like you I'm from the eighties too. Those were great stories back then. I know some were real corny but they were good.

I have Marvel Masterworks Iron Man and they have great stuff in it. Of course some that stuff was funny though.

See, that's my point. I can't find many younger readers that find those stories as interesting. My gf included. Not saying they don't exist, just that if they do they seem to be a minority. If you're a product of the times it tends to be more relevant to you I suppose.

[Kaewin]

My daughter likes the old stuff too of course she follows my lead. I am trying to get her into all of the eighties stuff I can.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaewin

My daughter likes the old stuff too of course she follows my lead. I am trying to get her into all of the eighties stuff I can.

Well done sir!

[Kaewin]

She gets her tastes from me from the older stuff but most of her pull list is the teenager books from DC and Spidergirl from Marvel.


of course she does like her Iron Man and Avengers

[Jason Abbadon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Ya know, this is starting to sound much like my recent complaint about kids and their music today. We're just getting old and all these new stories are just "noise" to some of us, lol.

Seriously it doesn't even make sense to apply many of the 40 plus years of history to a character who has clearly been through cold war times all the way to post 9/11 and somehow still looks 35 at most even though I thought he looked 45 back in the Demon in a bottle story ark.
.

Agreed but they had JUST done a two yaers' worth of awesome Mandarin storyline that made him brilliant and even a little noble in a crazy sorta way.
Really- TWO YEARS of buildup and intrigue leading up to one epic showdown battle royale! The entire storyline by Knaufs before Fracton took over was all making the Mandarin awesome and really a believable threat.

Then Fracton decides to do...that.

What. The. Fuck.

That happens a lot now in Marvel- a writer decides not to read anyhing on a character and to just headshot prior writer's work completely- even killing fan favorite characters like the Hobgoblin in the dumbest way possible as a big Fuck You to longtime readers- in Hobby's case it was followed by Spidey editor Steven Wacker going on CBR and telling fans to grow up, etc.

With Iron Man, we now have an armor that's obviously inferior to the old 80's suit while looking more advanced- mainly because Fracton never read the old stuff. So losers like Detroit Steel are a match for Iron Man!
Really, Firepower would mow that guy down...and Iron Man beat Firepower handily.

On the plus side, I dont by that book any more- just reading my roomie's copy.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Agreed but they had JUST done a two yaers' worth of awesome Mandarin storyline that made him brilliant and even a little noble in a crazy sorta way.
Really- TWO YEARS of buildup and intrigue leading up to one epic showdown battle royale! The entire storyline by Knaufs before Fracton took over was all making the Mandarin awesome and really a believable threat.

Then Fracton decides to do...that.

What. The. Fuck.

That happens a lot now in Marvel- a writer decides not to read anyhing on a character and to just headshot prior writer's work completely- even killing fan favorite characters like the Hobgoblin in the dumbest way possible as a big Fuck You to longtime readers- in Hobby's case it was followed by Spidey editor Steven Wacker going on CBR and telling fans to grow up, etc.

With Iron Man, we now have an armor that's obviously inferior to the old 80's suit while looking more advanced- mainly because Fracton never read the old stuff. So losers like Detroit Steel are a match for Iron Man!
Really, Firepower would mow that guy down...and Iron Man beat Firepower handily.

On the plus side, I dont by that book any more- just reading my roomie's copy.

You know, I felt the same way about how weak the new armor seems. When Detroit steel seemed to hold his own it was a huge wtf to me considering the threats Tony's faced over the years. His armor should be more powerful with each upgrade and yet like you said...it just took some leaps backwards. Maybe its the Rand reactor in his chest, lol. Or whatever Fraction and Marvel cop out with.

Sucks to hear that it gets worse after the annual. I read only up to #502 and was bored with the whole doc oc story. But I did enjoy everything pre #501. To say writer's write poor stories as a big eff you to readers seems too malicious to me and that's giving writers of stories I don't like more credit than they deserve.

I think they really just have no passion for what they do anymore when they ignore elements of a character that is successful with readers and then morph them into something completely unrecognizable and unlikable. Jeph Loeb for example. He was once a very celebrated writer in the industry amongst fans. Now he's recognized as the guy who dragged the "Who is the Red Hulk" story line for too long and as the guy responsible for the atrocious story known as Ultimatum. Some say that after he lost his son, he just lost his passion for writing. Maybe that's true.

Sometimes changing the old status quo works for the better. Immortal Iron Fist, post Annihilation Nova and Bucky becoming the new Cap are testaments to this. But like you say, when a writer doesnt even bother doing his homework on a character he's tasked with writing that's just lazy and not fair to readers who look forward to these stories.

Going on CBR and telling fans to grow up is hypocritical when I'm sure there are writer's that are frustrated with having to write for a character they don't really like and are frustrated with deadlines and company direction. Don't take it out on us...we keep your asses employed. All we ask in return is that if you're gonna ignore a characters history and rewrite it, at least cop out and say this is an alternate universe or something, really a reboot, dream sequence or anything other than continuity. I agree, it is insulting.

[Jason Abbadon]

Great points- usually it's not writers writing poor stories as a slap at the fans, but often someone will trash a popular charcater as pointless shock value to show how awesome their new threat supposedly is- Doom and Galactus get this treatment all the damn time.

The other side to that is crap like that bizzare Spaceknights miniseries from several years back- Jim STarlin, author of many of my favorite characters took an amazing, well established concept from Rom and wiped his ass with it.

Years later, he said in an interview that he never like Rom and just "phoned it in" because his boat needed a part and it was money.

Fuck's sake...I lost so much respect for the man after reading that.

[Greenskar]

*deleted double post

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Great points- usually it's not writers writing poor stories as a slap at the fans, but often someone will trash a popular charcater as pointless shock value to show how awesome their new threat supposedly is- Doom and Galactus get this treatment all the damn time.

The other side to that is crap like that bizzare Spaceknights miniseries from several years back- Jim STarlin, author of many of my favorite characters took an amazing, well established concept from Rom and wiped his ass with it.

Years later, he said in an interview that he never like Rom and just "phoned it in" because his boat needed a part and it was money.

Fuck's sake...I lost so much respect for the man after reading that.

That is exactly another aspect of lack of passion. "Meh, its a paycheck."

I'm certain there are writers who don't like writing certain characters much the same way a toy designer is pissed he got assigned to develop the "my little pony" line over the transformers brand (my assumption based on his pissed I'd be, lol).

I really agree with Jetty in that I actually favor Marvel characters however its DC's current writing and overall direction that is superior presently and has been the case the last few years at least.

All I'm hoping for at the moment is that Brubaker really delivers with Winter Soldier. Seeing as how this is a character he's poured about a decade of his life into I just can't see this not being successful. I mean less than 1% of the MU even knows Bucky is actually alive still.

[Jason Abbadon]

Brubaker could make the book amazing....but he seems to fall back on the whole "threat from the past" plot trope...and with Winter Soldier, it's the very premise of the book!
Add in Natasha and her endless supply of cold war bagagge....I just dont know.

That's why i loved Marvel's cosmic stuff- so much fresh material to work with and not any "Holy Cow" characters like Spidey or Cap that have so much merchandising crap that no change ever sticks- which kills and suspense, knowing with 1000% certainty that they wont get killed or even really altered no matter what happens.

In the cosmic books, C-list characters got developed into pure magic and might just as easily get knocked off in a big fight.

[Greenskar]

I hear ya with the whole threat from the past thing. However, with Bucky it makes sense. The guy is a product of the past. His entire tenure as Captain America was leading up to him having to protect the present from the sins of his past. Sleeper winter soldier agents is at least something I can accept as plausible to Bucky's storylines.

And while I do love Marvels cosmic stories, I didn't enjoy them in part because the characters involved were not heavy in merchandising, I just enjoyed them because they were great stories. DC has managed great stories with their character properties that are extremely heavy in merchandising and overall popularity so I'm not gonna play the underground music vs main stream role with my reading hobby. That's just me though, and perhaps I misinterpreted your comment.

The comment I made in the other thread about how wolverine is seemingly immortal now, sympathizes with your statement about killing the suspense when you know with certainty that the character won't be killed.

Marvel almost mitigated this with Wolverine in the Old Man Logan story...until the latter half of the book was rushed and the story forced. Prior to that you had a Wolverine who was now a pacifist that hadn't popped his claws in half a century and now had a wife and kid on a ranch where he paid taxes and rent to the hulk gang. How's that for a serious altering of character lol.

Is it time for a complete Marvel reboot like DC's new 52 you think?

[Tiberius]

NO REBOOT. However, other universes and what not should be made. We got the Zombieverse, Ultimateverse, AOAverse, 616verse, ect. We need another Ultimates like thing, Earth 617 or some shit. Earth-90210 [Old Man Logan] should be continued with more characters, new and old.

It is to late to do a reboot for Marvel, everyone would think they would just be fallowing DC. However, it would be interesting to see how a reboot would go [Cosmic Cube? Infinity Gauntlet maybe?]. Marvel just needs to slow down with these events..

[Kaewin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

That happens a lot now in Marvel- a writer decides not to read anyhing on a character and to just headshot prior writer's work completely- even killing fan favorite characters like the Hobgoblin in the dumbest way possible as a big Fuck You to longtime readers- in Hobby's case it was followed by Spidey editor Steven Wacker going on CBR and telling fans to grow up, etc.

Hobgoblin is dead? Kingsley? Who and why the fuck would they do for? He is the best Spiderman villain. I saw the new one and I figured it was just a pretender to the throne, and a crappy one at that.

[KingLouie731]

iirc they did that to boost Ulrich's street cred as a BA and to have him become the new Hobgoblin you know cus everyone was in love with that character

[Kaewin]

Your freaking kidding me, how did he die?

[Jason Abbadon]

The Ulrich retard did his laugh thing and cut Kingsley's head off- the writer's way of showing that yes, he was really dead.

Roger Stern, the guy that made Hobby joked in another thread that Kingsley had hypnotized Flash into thinking he ws the Hobgoblin, so it could all be in Ulrich's head...but the wat the writer (Slott?) handled it was shit.

[Kaewin]

Maybe it was Daniel in disguise again. Do you know what issue it was in? I don't believe Kingsley is dead after all Norman Osborn took a goblin glider to the chest. The bs that there was a bum nearby is the same. Wouldn't Harry and all the others know Osborn on site?

[Jason Abbadon]

I just read this week's Iron Man...buh.
I gotta stop reading this shit- the cover always promises action and inside...nothing. Pages and pages of meetings and product tests...
And it occurs to me that Larocca must be a big Tron fan- every damn design is covered with pointless glowy parts...so...weak...

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

I just read this week's Iron Man...buh.
I gotta stop reading this shit- the cover always promises action and inside...nothing. Pages and pages of meetings and product tests...
And it occurs to me that Larocca must be a big Tron fan- every damn design is covered with pointless glowy parts...so...weak...

Ok...so I'm caught up now and while I can see your frustration I absolutely do not share it or the negative opinion you have of this book. The problem is that the story is definitely a slooooow burn so readers yearning for forward progression definitely didn't get it from this latest issue.

However, fraction does such a great job with the supporting cast that I actually enjoy what goes on with the Resilient crew. I really hope Bethany's part in this recent issue turns out to be a bigger part of the story later and wasn't just comic relief or something. Maybe that new tech will play a role later too?

I really like what Fraction's is doing with Mandarin and watching him make Zeke his bitch and talk shit about his dad Obediah was awesome to me. I know you didn't like what Fraction ignored about the previous Mandarin development before he took over, to each his own, I like this.

The thing with this current run is that while its a slow burn he's been weaving together a story that has been brewing since the Five Nightmares. Sure this arc doesn't have the awesomeness that was Most Wanted but this is FAR from crap to me comparatively to actual crap comics and holds its own as a series with other great series out there.

I'm still loving Fraction's run on Invincible Iron Man and I look forward to seeing the explosion when this slow burning fuse finally sets it off.

[Jason Abbadon]

I see all of that, and I agree taht the set up is not but he NEVER PAYS OFF!
There is maybe three pages of action every four issues- and Tony gets his ass kicked in every encounter!
In his own book, Tony has not won a fight since the first fight with Stane!
There was no fght with Osborn at the end of World's Most Wanted, nothing after the five issues of Tony being "dead", he gets fought to a standstill by the super low tech Detroit Steel, outsmarted and beat by Doc Ock (for God's sake!) and now all this.

Tony is the second smartest man in Marvel but he's always shown ten steps behind- getting played.
What's worse..he does NOTHING HEROIC.

Maybe I'm used to a higher standard after reading the Iron Man since the mid 1980's- even te (amazing) run just prior to Fracton's taking over the book was amazing and adult in nature- and it had an amazing fight with the Mandarin at the end of the run!

Fracton never pays off- just look at Fear Itself- no big showdown after half a year of buildup in six of Marvel's biggest titles?!? That's beyond lame.

What's more, Fracton and everypne else are not on the same page with Iron Man at all- in New Avengers, we see a massive Stark Resilant factory get destroyed- but in the Im book , it's a tony operation with only a few employees. In Avengers, Tony has money and is a celebrity, while in the IM title, Tony is portrayed as more of a has-been.

Iron Man is my alltome favorite character, and it's painful to see him star in a title where he never wins, pay pennane for supposedly having been a terrible person (despite that NEVER having been shown before in 40 years of IM comics) and loses every fight- occasional as they are.

It's almost as bad as "Iron Man 2.0" and that's an absolute train wreck of a title. Even the Secret Avengers and X-Men titles have ignored all of Rhode's armor's new features, treating him like "Iron Man Lite" (which sucks).