[Greenskar]

Invincible Iron Man is currently the only title I'm reading involving Iron man. Haven't bothered with an event since Siege. I rather like the fact that contrary to the title he's NOT invincible in this series. He's not even the same guy you remember due the the consequences of Most Wanted. He even has Rand technology in him. He should be getting his ass handed to him physically and mentally IMO because of such limitations that I would hope one would suffer after recovering from being labotomized.

I love Iron man, and there's few things I enjoy more about my favorite characters than watching them suffer and struggle only to see them triumph later. "never pays off"? Story isn't finished yet. I thought the pay off of past arcs were great. Doc oc was filler much like the deathlok nation story was for uncanny X-Force. Stark belittled the hell out of Doc OC throughout those issues, and i thought Doc OC's motives were befitting of his character.

You definitely seem like you just want Iron Man to kick some ass already. Been there seen that. Sure he'll get back to it again. All other marvel universe stories aside with Tony in bleeding edge armor, I love the character direction that fraction has taken.

[Jason Abbadon]

The direction just seems to have no point- like watching a TV show (like Lost or BSG) that seems to have thing amazing story arc...but it's really just being made up each episode.
And that always leads to disappointment.

It's exactly what happened in Fear Itself and The Order- hell, the Order just..stopped. No ending or follow up or anything. Both were Fracton's "big projects".

In comics, the hero is supposed to overcome adversity and hardship, doing the right thing in spite of the personal consequences and yes, kicking ass- at least kicking metphorical ass like when Tony took down Gyrich in The Initiave.

All this "Tony was a dick to everyone" and is doing pennance crap is SO annoying- it's like a writer coming onto Spider Man and revealing that Peter has always been a hoarder- and is just as out of character.

Tony has always been the guy that, since giving up weapons manufacturing, has done the right thing ethicly- and treated his employees so well that they'd go to bat for him on anything. Even face jailtime or danger.

They can still do amazing stories about Tony's bloodstained past, or the eternal fallout from the Armor Wars or the Initiave, but all this other crap of flashbacks wherein Tony humiliates and belittles his employees is bullshit.
It makes Tony unheroic- and reading a comic about an asshole is not what Iron Man is about.


Charcaterization aside, the new armor seems pitiful in the IM book- we dont know what it can do- if anything- better than the Extremis suit.
Meanwhile, in Avengers and elsewhere we see Tony's armor capable of making shields for himself and others, the armor can modify into various configurations- space, big weapons, etc, and seems much more substantial than the paper thing suit in the IM book.

[bmorr]

if you hate it so much then stop reading it.

But really, its all leading up, hopefully to a clash between mandarin and stark, if IM's rogues gallery doesnt kill mandarin first. Im glad those guys finally got some characterization, other than being stuck in the background of fighting scenes. But, the book paints tony as being a drunk, egotistical douche for the last 40 years of his existence in comics and fraction is bascially pulling the reboot switch because of that whole mind wipe thing from most wanted. But yeah i like this more humbled stark.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmorr

if you hate it so much then stop reading it.

But really, its all leading up, hopefully to a clash between mandarin and stark, if IM's rogues gallery doesnt kill mandarin first. Im glad those guys finally got some characterization, other than being stuck in the background of fighting scenes. But, the book paints tony as being a drunk, egotistical douche for the last 40 years of his existence in comics and fraction is bascially pulling the reboot switch because of that whole mind wipe thing from most wanted. But yeah i like this more humbled stark.

^ is all I'm saying.

Sucks that you hate it Jason, but when last I checked Fraction wasn't the man responsible for the character direction of Iron Man in Civil War and Secret Invasion. He's being a good writer and dealing with the ramifications those events created and worked them into a way Tony can be reborn in the modern age.

I don't want retelling or continuation of OLD Iron Man stories, we get enough of that with other Marvel lines like X-men and Avengers. I want new stories with new character development that is relevant to modern society and how these characters would fit in it.

Of course Tony's suit is doing more in a book like Avengers...its a flagship title that DEMANDS action and guarantees it. With all the characters involved in those type of books its set up to showcase their abilities more than the character half the time. Solo books are supposed to develop the character and that's what Fraction's book is doing. I believe he's doing a tremendous job given what he had to work with after all of Marvel's events.

All I'm doing is offering a positive opinion to counter yours for those lurkers or fellow Arkers who may be discouraged from this book any further because they continue to read the bashing you give it. I almost avoided it because I respect your critique on comics, I still do, I just didn't happen to share the disgust with this series that you have. Just a difference of opinion is all.

[Kaewin]

I'm sorry if I am misstated myself in the beginning. I like the book I just wish there were more small goals besides large ones. A lot of older books would run a large storyline and then do a couple of throw away issues of something small. This way it doesn't seem like Tony's life is always in crisis mode. He needs a time to rest and relax. I do agree with Jason that maybe all the writer should be on the same page with the character so he seems to fit into continuity.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaewin

I'm sorry if I am misstated myself in the beginning. I like the book I just wish there were more small goals besides large ones. A lot of older books would run a large storyline and then do a couple of throw away issues of something small. This way it doesn't seem like Tony's life is always in crisis mode. He needs a time to rest and relax. I do agree with Jason that maybe all the writer should be on the same page with the character so he seems to fit into continuity.

I actually agree with Jason too on that aspect...but that's not Fraction's fault, that's Marvel's editor in chief's fault. Fraction is responsible for his story, not everyone else's. I agree the pacing is slow but I don't agree that the stories are bad.

[Jason Abbadon]

I respect your opinions guys...I'm just frustrated with Fracton.
His current stuff just never comes to a finale.

I LIKE defined story arcs- I like characters going through something and it being a turning point- Fracton's first arc (Five Nightmares) on Iron Man did this beautifully- it was smart, took bits of IM contunity and used them in a new direction, it had crazy action every issue while introducing new awesome bad guys while also focusing on the hero (Tony) and at the end of the arc, things were changed.
But he was only writing IM at that time- as soona s he was on X-Men too and now all these big projects...

Some writers get slammed for "writing for trade" so a story works well for that format and I'll tell you all that those are the stories that become legendary- stuff like Born Again. Armor Wars, Enemy Of the State, Death of Jean DeWolf, etc.
Six to eight issues that tell a story- that's 140-160 pages of comics- the equivalent of a 350-400 page book.

If you bought a current IM trade ($20 retail) you'd have...nothing. Meetings and backbiting betwen supporting cast, self doubt and lots of buildup.

As to me not reading it- as far as marvelis concerned, I DONT- I read my roommate's for free, but I'm not buying it- and I have a couple of long boxes full of nothing but IM comics.

Regarding other titles doing their own IM thing- what choice do they have? Before Fear Itself, no one knew when the IM storyline was taking place compared with other appearances- surely Fracton could have mentioned in Iron Man that Tony gave up the flippin' Infinity Gauntlet in Avengers! That depiction was SO GOOD- heroic in every way and Tony damn near got thrown off the Avengers for it!

And then there's the armor itself- other writers have no choice but to use Iron Man as having the same abilities as his Extremis armor version- no other breakdown or explanation of the suit's abilities have been established.
It used to be that prt of the fun of reading IM was KNOWING what the suit could do and seeing how Tony used it all to get out of bad situations or save the day- the Haunted storyline rocked so hard because Tony had no Extremix armor or abilities and was suspended as SHIELD director- and he still beat the Mandarin!

Really, I cant reccomend Haunted enough, guys.

Hmm...you know, if you go back and re-read this with an abe Simpson voice, it's pretty funny.
Fuck it, read what you want and hope for the best- at least I aint paying for it!

[Greenskar]

Read haunted. Agreed, its a great story. I still don't feel like blasting Fraction for telling his. Although I do see your point about having an Iron Man trade without much action, however, I can think of incredible Hulk stories that didn't have much hulk in them and were actually good stories.

Good for you, you're reading these for free and being selective with purchases. Can't fault anyone for that. But part you is really coming off as an action junkie with this discussion. Just my take. If that's what you want you're just as entitled to it as the next person, but that's just not the direction the writer intends to go with it. Its not going YOUR way...that doesn't make it a bad story it just makes it one you don't happen to care about.

It really is interesting and apparent how different our taste in stories are though. I thought the infinity gauntlet story was pretty terrible in the recent avengers story. I just can't take the hood seriously at all. Not to mention the indoctrination of Steve Rogers into the illuminati at the end...lame to me. Steve isn't a guy I would consult when the world is threatened, which was originally a requirement for that specific gathering, he's who I expect to execute a command. I suppose his elevated status into the position that Tony and Fury previously occupied earned him a chair, even though I didnt really like it. But much like your expectations of how you expect writers to treat Tony based on 40 yrs of history, as you put it, I expect the same with Steve. So instead I chalk it up to character growth and say "fine, that's why they did, that's what it is". I can bitch about it...but it doesn't change what is happening anymore than it changes why the X-Men Broke up.

I'm glad fraction ignored infinity gauntlet, it really had no relevance to the stories he's telling.

[Jason Abbadon]

Well, the overall IG Avengers story WAS lame- they managed to give BLack Bolt the wrong damn gem for starters (Iron Man had the Reality Gem to protect, not BB!), but the part where Tony got the Gauntlet and gives his speech about all he could do with it, and why he did not ("and then I'd be Kang") really rang true to his character, and that what I was trying to point out. It was an Iron Man moment. No action required- and to me, that one page made buying the prior three issues totally worth it- Tony shows everyone exactly what kind of man he is and walks away- that was the big redeeming moment since Civil War.
If they'd used that storyline's basic premise with the same outcome instead of Seige, it could have been an epic event- Osborn trying to get the gems instead of the silly Hood.
Though I love JrJr- even have an original Iron Man he drew for me- he phoned his Avengers art in bigtime.

And I really loved Steve becoming one of the Illumaniti at the end- it shows that he's gotten that stick pulled out of his ass finally- being the Man in Charge means making comprimises, not some unyielding black or white morality. A lot of fans hated that, but I thought it showed rarely sen character development in a 70 year old character.

Funny- i'm so NOT an action junkie- my favorite marvel comic is Journey Into Mystery! If the story is moving along and interesting, I'm super happy. JiM has the best story and pacing around and does not need super-throwdowns...but the story is really tight. In IM, there is so much stuff that blows the pacing- battles are interupted for pages of meetings over whatever and though it's IRON MAN, it reads more like it should be a Stark Resilant team book.

That being said, different titles have different expectations- a LOT of fans dropped Avengers in Fear Itself when, instead of anything happenng, Bendis had six pages per issue of talking heads discussing what had already happened- man, that sucked hard. Avengers seems to be going back on track with this new storyline though...but my LCS lost a LOT of sales as marvel fans dropped out of Fear Itself- just as DC started it's new titles at a lower price than Marvel too!

I want a nice balance of smart story and kick ass action- stuff like Venom and X-Force, both by Rick Remeder- and soon he's taking over Secret Avengers -which despite the action, has sucked hard in my opinion.

To say someting positive about Fracton's IM, I was glad to see Fracton bring Henry Hellrung into this issue for a cameo- and it's interesting that he's suffering for having had powers instilled in The Order (which fracton also wrote) but also kinda jerky as the same character was just active with powers in Fear Itself- which was days ago in IM timeline.
More of IM nad Marvel not being on the same page...that's more a Marvel fault though- they really REALLY suck at crossovers, yet they just do one after another after another....

[Greenskar]

Definitely not labeling you an official action Junkie, Jason, lol. I just meant some of your primary IM complaints beyond other Marvel titles not being on the same page suggested you just wanted MORE action. But fair enough.

I read the recent Remender point one issue of Secret Avengers and Cap pushed some buttons with Hawkeye the hardest I've seen, or at least that I can remember, to measure his ability to lead. It wasn't a stellar issue but it was a decent peek into how Remender intends to handle Hawkeye's character development. Since I haven't read ANY of the secret avengers series prior, I haven't been able to measure that development that earned him a seat in the illuminati, although I agree with you that I'm glad he finally got rid of that stick up his ass...which is exactly how I felt about Cyclops when he became a badass and shed his boyscout image. I was interested in the secret Avengers issues that included Nova...I haven't heard anything bad about those yet.

You definitely have piqued my interest in Journey into Mystery, though. I heard from a few people actually at my LCS that while many people disliked Fear Itself it sure did help set up some amazing stories in the world of Thor. Can you recommend a reading order or specific HC collected edition?

[bmorr]

journey or mighty thor? it hasnt been too many issues so there should only be one trade each out so far, but i could be wrong.

but a reading order for fear itself is a chaotic thing to think about. It kinda.....messy since its all over the place. Each book, tie-in, etc has its own piece of whats going on as a whole. but only like 25% of everything put out during that time is worth reading or memorable, or accomplishes something. A good one to read is the home front stuff only for the speedball story alone. avoid fearsome four as its a pointless, disapointing piece of sludge. journey is the best only because it makes you really READ it. It gets kinds complicated, especailly with the hell politics.

[Kaewin]

I just wish they would finish with the big crossovers, they get in the way of good stories and stamp all over the other titles. Just a year or two without it.

[Jason Abbadon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Definitely not labeling you an official action Junkie, Jason, lol. I just meant some of your primary IM complaints beyond other Marvel titles not being on the same page suggested you just wanted MORE action. But fair enough.

I read the recent Remender point one issue of Secret Avengers and Cap pushed some buttons with Hawkeye the hardest I've seen, or at least that I can remember, to measure his ability to lead. It wasn't a stellar issue but it was a decent peek into how Remender intends to handle Hawkeye's character development. Since I haven't read ANY of the secret avengers series prior, I haven't been able to measure that development that earned him a seat in the illuminati, although I agree with you that I'm glad he finally got rid of that stick up his ass...which is exactly how I felt about Cyclops when he became a badass and shed his boyscout image. I was interested in the secret Avengers issues that included Nova...I haven't heard anything bad about those yet.

You definitely have piqued my interest in Journey into Mystery, though. I heard from a few people actually at my LCS that while many people disliked Fear Itself it sure did help set up some amazing stories in the world of Thor. Can you recommend a reading order or specific HC collected edition?

Journey into Mystery, and the new Loki are my favorite read each month- start at the first issue and read up to current- it's only a few months in-
In a nutshell, Loki got killed at the end of Seige but had laid preperations, just in case- he'd severed ties with Hela so his sould would not be condemned to her Hel.
After his (strangely noble) death, Thor gets mopey about the good kid his brother once was, and decides to bring him back to life- an ability he still apartantly has since the start of his current series (now there's a super-power!).
Loki though...returns as a child with no memories of his past life- he returns as Thor remembered him from their childhood.

But Loki, before he died, made preperations, and all his arcane knowledge lies within a talking magpie, which young Loki calls "Ikol" and serves as young often ignored advisor.
From there it's conning Mephisto, cutting a deal with Surtur, manipulating Hela and dodging angry Asgardians that would happily see him die again.

Really, it's a great damn book!

Skip the older issues of Secret Avengers if you're a Nova fan (like me) as they make Rich out to be such a rookie and do bullshit like have Steve easily take on the Nova Prime force....which is such utter horseshit if you read the Nova series...
Crappy storyline too- introducing yet another widespread secret organization of baddies to the MU- one so secret that not even Nick Fury knew about it- but every occult bozo suddenly has ties to.

[Greenskar]

Wait wait...Steve Rogers held the entire Nova Force? Ok now THAT just reinforced all your previous arguments about how out of sync marvel is with how the let writers handle their characters in different books. Shit like that is why I have just been reading solo series books lately with the exception of uncanny X-Force.

I love Nova (Richard Rider) and even though he went out with a bang in Thanos Imperative I still hold my breath for his eventual (and welcomed) return. That to me would have been like if Green Arrow was able to wield the green lantern ring masterfully instead of what I remember actually happening which was he was barely able to generate an arrow and it nearly killed him.

THE ENTIRE NOVA FORCE?! and please Rider, a rookie? He could be ordering cap around with his power and experience with galactic scale warfare. At least when Tony had his exchange of words with Richie you knew Tony had the unyielding personality that justified it even though Nova's power level at the time made him one of the most powerful beings in the universe. Sigh. Rant over. Staying away.

I will be checking out Journey into Mystery. Thanks for the additional insight into it.

[Jason Abbadon]

Yeah...and he rushes into a situation like arookie, gets posessed and Steve takes on the Novaforce to stop him- and he's able to fly and fire blasts and everything with no learning curve at all!
Then, once not posessed, Rich is all "Gee I was so stupid, sir!"

Man, it's...it's Richard from New Warriors all over again.

Every Nova fan hates that run.

Let me know when you're hooked on JiM!
If you just read those issues of JiM that tie into Fear Itself , you'll be far happier.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Yeah...and he rushes into a situation like arookie, gets posessed and Steve takes on the Novaforce to stop him- and he's able to fly and fire blasts and everything with no learning curve at all!
Then, once not posessed, Rich is all "Gee I was so stupid, sir!"

Man, it's...it's Richard from New Warriors all over again.

Every Nova fan hates that run.

Where's that little vomiting emoticon option?

[Kaewin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Where's that little vomiting emoticon option?

[Kaewin]

I just read the last issue of Iron Man and liked it a lot. I think I have better hopes for the series. I just don't like the way the Mandarin was drawn, he looked to young. The storyline is getting better and I like the way the boss villains are acting like they should. If it keeps going the way the last couple issues have my faith with have been returned.

[KingLouie731]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Yeah...and he rushes into a situation like arookie, gets posessed and Steve takes on the Novaforce to stop him- and he's able to fly and fire blasts and everything with no learning curve at all!
Then, once not posessed, Rich is all "Gee I was so stupid, sir!"

Man, it's...it's Richard from New Warriors all over again.

Every Nova fan hates that run.

Let me know when you're hooked on JiM!
If you just read those issues of JiM that tie into Fear Itself , you'll be far happier.

Hey Jason could you unpack this for me, I'm not sure what you are a getting at but New Warriors was/is one of my all time favorite books *v1 anyway* and I love me some NOVA

[Jason Abbadon]

The "every Nova fan hates that run" was referring to Secret Avengers, not ew Warriors (though the costumes they had Nova in are a crime against fashion!).

I love Nova too but in new Warriors they regressed his character into a total rookie- he blundered around and let them call him "Kid Nova" for pete's sake!
That's like Spidey joining the Young Allies and getting called "Spider-Boy".
In Secret Avengers, he's back to New Warriors #1- I sincerely dont think Brubaker even read Annihilation or any of Nova's development- Ritch was just a guy to be rescued while showing off how impossibly perfect Steve Rogers is- by his not breaking a sweat from taking te entire Nova Force into himself- no preperation or experience required for Marvel's mary-sue.

But the treatment in Secret Avengers was a million times worse- and not just for Nova- Moon Knight as also playing good soldier with the "YES, SIR!" crap- as though they were starstruck by Steve's Living Legend hype.
The entire book was more "Steve Rogers and some Avengers" than anything else- it was the book he starred in while Bucky was Cap in the Captain America title...and it showed.

They tried to establish that Steve, because of the SS formula is a tactical genius, smarter than normal humans with enhanced reflexes and the ability to pick up any weapon and understand it's use perfectly with minimal intruction and of course, hs shit dont stink either.

Ruined Steve Rogers with that stupidity- the entire point of the character was always that he was peak human potential- no actual powers- and because of his endless training and commitment, he could overcome any odds. He was he original "costumed athlete" Avenger...
And they managed to make him just another Taskmaster knockoff.

[Kaewin]

Actually he was always the peak human potential in the old Avengers I have read. He is leading because he has the formula he is leading because he has charisma and smart. If anything Taskmaster would be the copy, along with Daredevil and others. MK might have said "YES,SIR" but we have no way of knowing if he was sarcastic or just spoofing on him. I am not a real fan of Secret Avengers even with Valkyrie in it. I understand it has gotten better but if it is secret then they need secret stuff. Cap is too visible for this, maybe if he adopted Jack Monroe's old Nomad id (I'know cap had it first but Jack's costume looked better).


My two cents

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaewin

Actually he was always the peak human potential in the old Avengers I have read. He is leading because he has the formula he is leading because he has charisma and smart. If anything Taskmaster would be the copy, along with Daredevil and others. MK might have said "YES,SIR" but we have no way of knowing if he was sarcastic or just spoofing on him. I am not a real fan of Secret Avengers even with Valkyrie in it. I understand it has gotten better but if it is secret then they need secret stuff. Cap is too visible for this, maybe if he adopted Jack Monroe's old Nomad id (I'know cap had it first but Jack's costume looked better).


My two cents

I think you missed the point he was trying to make. Jason was pretty much saying that Brubaker, pretty much wrote Nova and MK out of character per the recent development that has been written in their other books. It's almost as if Brubaker, having been the writer of the Cap books for about 6 yrs, knew nothing of the new status quo of Richard Rider and the ramifications and various intricacies of the Nova Force and just thought, "oh, space powers, cool, I'll give 'em to Steve just by wearing Nova's Helmet" and that they would all be in awe of Steve just because he was/is Captain America.

I love Cap, don't get me wrong, but after reading all the cosmic stories that DnA wrote, Nova deserved better handling than what Brubaker gave. I had to read this just to see why everyone complained, I can see why.

Oh, Jason, check out the Ultimate Spider man thread in the movies and tv forum. A Nova is going to be in the show. It's not Richie though, its someone else.

[Kaewin]

Ah, sorry I missed that. Ready quickly because I had to take daughter to wok and missed so. Of course when it comes to Nova isn't that what happens to him? Bring him back and put him on the Avengers for a while. Might help him out and on a real team (not that the SA aren't) He might get better treatment or at least better care. Hey if they get rid of Wolverine and Spider-man (neither has any reason to be an Avengers with all the other crap they do) he could join Luke Cage's team.

[Greenskar]

I prefer my Nova in space but that's just me. The only part I liked that involved Nova on Earth after his new status quo hit was during Civil War when he interacted with Iron Man. He held his own speaking with Tony and he didn't flinch at all. Even Tony recognized how changed Richard Rider was not only in Power Level but as a person too.

[bmorr]

id be happy if they got rid of protector and put Nova in his place. Howevor, previews for AoX have shown that captain marvel coming back from the dead(again). But, unfortunately Nova is still dead. Damn marvel...