[En Sabah Nerd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee4

Yeah, okay. Thats sounds like a really lame (and untrue) generalization made up by people who didn't enjoy the movie and need some rationalization that there are other people who enjoy the thing they dislike.

Yeah it sounds like we are a stone's throw away from somebody bringing out the "true fan" guns so maybe everybody should walk away from this thread and accept that it's okay to disagree on whether or not you liked the movie.

[ddarko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee4

Yeah, okay. Thats sounds like a really lame (and untrue) generalization made up by people who didn't enjoy the movie and need some rationalization that there are other people who enjoy the thing they dislike.

Sure. But just in case you think sounds like = you are correct, my point is no different from what you would hear regarding any piece of literature. To truly appreciate the faults or positives of a piece, you need to be fully aware of all that went before it.

Now not to mean offence, but as we see here from the discussion, Dr Cain was missing an entire chunk of knowledge regarding SW outside of the movies and cartoons that most fans would actually know about. So is his judgement sound? Yes, if we are speaking of those who have the same level of exposure as he does. BUT for someone who is aware of more, the conclusion is different.

It might sound lame, but it’s the truth!

[ddarko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

I had no issue with the duels, the Force, and Kylo Ren is badass. Also, the only Star Wars lore is what has been shown in the previous 8 movies and two cartoon series. I didn't see TLJ contradict anything from those.

I understand you did not. I am merely telling you that this is likely because you evaluate contradiction of narrative devices differently. Instead of seeing a bait and a switch, you think its golden style of storytelling that they surprised you by switching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

Why are you trying to make me think this movie is bad because you don't like it? If you didn't like it because you thought it was a bad movie, fine, that's your call. However, if you didn't like it because it didn't do what you wanted it to, then that is quite childish.

I do not dislike it because it did not go the way I wanted it to go. Rather, my point is that the movie contradicted the very path it prefigured (by use of narrative devices) it would go. Contradicting what you set-up through narrative devices do have a place, in comedy!! Since SW is not in the comedy genre, contradiction is a sign that the storyteller messed up!

Now did you notice this while watching the movie? It is likely you did not, because you were entertained. But if one did notice it, then the movie starts to fall apart. Which brings us to the final point:-

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Originally Posted by Dr Kain

And no, a bad movie is one that is not the least bit entertaining. A bad movie is bad because it sucks. It's not enjoyable to sit through in the slightest ala Alien Covenant, Death Note, and the recent King Arthur.

This is a very naive view of evaluating storytelling. For an example, a movie like Schindler's list is not entertaining (unless one has a twisted mind). However, it is a good movie because of how well it portrays the subject matter. So it should be obvious that your metric/standard for judging movies is at least a bit off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

Back to SW though, let me put it this way, the only bad Star Wars movie is a boring one, and TLJ was not boring.

I think it is very clear to me why you subjectively feel that TLJ is a good movie in that sense. I am just pointing out that from an objective point of view of evaluating it as a narrative within a larger context, it really is pretty bad!

Does it mean that you should not buy/see the movie? No!!! Does it mean that you should start hating it? No!!! This is merely an explanation as to why this movie is objectively bad. In other words, it is just pointing out that those who have problems with it aren't just people who are childishly unhappy that the movie didn't go the way they wanted.

[Gunathar]

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Originally Posted by ddarko

The point here isn’t that you should watch it. Rather, the point here is that since you haven’t seen them, you are likely mislead when you think what you saw in TLJ by Luke was “badass”. KOTOR cinematics are something most SW fans have seen and in that context, TLJ Skywalker-Ren duel was pretty lame!

Just to give you an idea of what epic looks like in KOTOR

I get chills still watching these. Here you can watch them all in one go:

[Gunathar]

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Originally Posted by deecee4

Yeah, pretty much this exactly. He's cut himself off from the force, trying to get away from all that stuff, so why would he show reverence/respect/whatever for an artifact from his past? I thought that scene was great. It works both as showing his state of mind right away and its a funny piss take on the solemn ending of TFA.

That blue saber, a Jedi's weapon, was first shown to Luke by Old Ben in Star Wars (1977) as a relic of the Clone Wars.

But that blue saber is not just an artifact from Luke's past. More importantly, it's actually a possession of his father -the only physical link left from him- who Luke fought because he believed he had good in him still even if Obi-Wan and Yoda did not. Luke's belief is what redeemed Anakin.

That is why the act of tossing that blue saber over his shoulder in The Last Jedi in what is meant as humor/indifference is insulting to me.

[Gunathar]

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Originally Posted by Dr Kain

Okay, cool, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that I found the Luke battle scene to be awesome.

Who said it wasn't? Personally, I thought it was enjoyable... Except for the little sweep off the shoulder by Luke. What a very arrogant, very douche gesture. Why not just the hint of a smile or a wink?

What irked me about that duel is this: Why would Luke use his old blue-bladed lightsaber when we know he had a green one when teaching young Ben (which we repeatedly saw in flashbacks)?

[Gunathar]

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Originally Posted by deecee4

Not at all. Tolkien was definitely and clearly an influence on Lucas (one of many influences of course) and obvious parallels can be made between the two series. Lucas even used dialogue verbatim from Tolkien in an early draft of A New Hope.

Really. I know Lucas was highly inspired by Kurosawa's work for Star Wars, especially Hidden Fortress' story and characters, but this is the first time I've heard of a Tolkien influence. Examples and sources please.

[Gunathar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

With that said, I think The Phantom Menace is the only bad movie in the franchise because it is so god damn boring. AotC and RotS all have issues, but they are still entertaining to watch thanks to their lushes environments, gorgeous fight choreography, and John Williams' superb score.

By your logic, AotC is a bad movie because it is boring to me. All that artificial and awkward love story of Anakin and Padmé makes me thank technology for the fast forward option.

Also, TPM is good because I find its lush underwater Naboo environment, gorgeous fight choreography of Darth Maul versus Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, and John William's superb score -including Duel of the Fates, one of the most memorable piece of Star Wars music- entertaining.

[Dr Kain]

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Originally Posted by Gunathar

Really. I know Lucas was highly inspired by Kurosawa's work for Star Wars, especially Hidden Fortress' story and characters, but this is the first time I've heard of a Tolkien influence. Examples and sources please.

Why not do your own research? We shouldn't have to provide the proof for you when Lucas has said it many of times in many different mediums. I don't remember which documentary I saw where he talked about Lord of the Rings, I just know it was in one of them. I don't think it was in The Empire of Dreams though. It may have been in the "Let's Shit on George Lucas Because It's Cool" movie.