[thechris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by behindthemask

As far as the bullet thing, I'm making reference to vigilanties. As with comicbooks there's 3 kinds of hero's. There's the mutant kind born with super powers. There's the accident type where some explosion or walk down the wrong street ends up with super powers ex DD/PP. Then there's the vigilanty who has no power, but has resources and wants justice to be made where the police fall short. Punisher,blade, Batman all fit into this category. I'm just saying where as Blade and Punisher carry guns, bulletproof vests, they risk their lives and get shot. Where as batman has a rubber suit and batarangs, he's more liable to be dead from a gun shot then the other 2.

I dunno, man. I would say that Punisher, Batman, Daredevil, Spider-man and other heroes who don't have bulletproof flesh are all equally subject to the same discrimination of being able to be shot by bullets and killed. Yeah a couple of them have "heightened senses" but that doesn't make them bulletproof and one must be willing to allow for some fantasy to allow for them to dodge a hail of machine gun fire from multiple angles or possess armour of a grade capable of deflecting that much of a barrage. Blade gets stabbed all the time but survives because of his part vampire healing ability. Batman doesn't exactly come out of his battles without a scratch. He bleeds, he gets cut, he gets shot. Remember Knightfall? He had his back broken and was out of action for a while. And he only wears a rubber suit in the movies, that's what the suit is really made out of in real life but we're told that it's made of bulletproof material.

All I'm saying is if you're going to say that Batman should be easily killed with a single bullet after a few issues, then so should Punisher/Spider-man/Daredevil/Nick Fury/Antman/Huntress/Tony Stark/Black Canary/Green Arrow. How would they fair any better than Batman other than the fact that they're Marvel characters? I don't think Batman would fair any better than that list in a real life situation, but it's a comic book. When you start saying, "It's cool but sucks because he should be dead by now.", I feel then that should open up ALL comic book characters to be evaluated equally. I don't want to turn this into a "Batman vs. Punisher, who is better" discussion, though, because I like both characters.

[Greenskar]

Its interesting that an earlier comment made reference to Stone Cold Steve Austin (who's character owes more to Wolverine and not the other way around), because this almost reminds me of the late 90's battle of WWF vs WCW

WCW had the icons for a while while WWF was pushing the limits of the obscene for ratings.

While I certainly don't see Superman turning Hollywood Hogan on us (for those who get the references ) I really do see some similarities. Everything in WWF was just build up to the next soap opera story line *cough*Marvel event*cough* back then.

Sorry guys not sure where I'm going with this, guess nostalgia was kicking in.

[proteus]

Well i used to love the old Keith Giffen run on Justice League International,i liked how they all riffed off each other,Blue Beetle and Booster Gold acting the comedians,Guy Gardener being an ass to everyone, Bats and Martian Manhunter acting all grim,it was a great series with great writing....but when the Jim Lee era X-men books(my first was giant-sized #275 X-men in space/magneto and Rogue in the Savage Land) hit the stands they absolutely blew me away with the detailed,technical take on the X-verse,iv only ever read the X-books none of the other Marvel Books appealed to me,im a Massive sci-Fi fan as well,and i love time travel/alternate timelines so obviously Cable was a massive draw for me,however the drop in the standard of art AND storytelling eventually pushed me away from as i just can never find anything that screams READ ME!! That said iv recently bought the X-men:Supernovas + Age of X collected editions and enjoyed them a lot (though i would have prefered a Jim Lee/Andy Kubert type artist on of Age of X,as i dont feel the art did the concept justice!!) For me personally DC just doesnt draw me in,iv never seen a DC book that has MADE me want to read it,whereas Marvels do pique my curiosity,and shallow as it may be,i do think good art matters,and that where historically i think Marvel have always beaten DC...

[thechris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Its interesting that an earlier comment made reference to Stone Cold Steve Austin (who's character owes more to Wolverine and not the other way around), because this almost reminds me of the late 90's battle of WWF vs WCW

WCW had the icons for a while while WWF was pushing the limits of the obscene for ratings.

While I certainly don't see Superman turning Hollywood Hogan on us (for those who get the references ) I really do see some similarities. Everything in WWF was just build up to the next soap opera story line *cough*Marvel event*cough* back then.

Sorry guys not sure where I'm going with this, guess nostalgia was kicking in.

That's exactly what I was alluding to. I've said this before, DC is like the WCW of comics and Marvel is the WWE/WWE with Vince Russo at the helm. Everyone knows Hulk Hogan (Superman) and Macho Man (Batman) but most people feel like Stonecold Steve Austin (Wolverine) and Shawn Michaels (Tony Stark) were "cooler". New 52 feels like the entire DC Universe has gone post-nWo, ie: the Vince Russo WCW era adding more smut and obscenity to get attention. I can't help but feel like DC is screaming "Come over here, guys! We're cool, too! See? We've got boobies and cocaine here, too!!!" and it's kind of pathetic.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechris

That's exactly what I was alluding to. I've said this before, DC is like the WCW of comics and Marvel is the WWE/WWE with Vince Russo at the helm. Everyone knows Hulk Hogan (Superman) and Macho Man (Batman) but most people feel like Stonecold Steve Austin (Wolverine) and Shawn Michaels (Tony Stark) were "cooler". New 52 feels like the entire DC Universe has gone post-nWo, ie: the Vince Russo WCW era adding more smut and obscenity to get attention. I can't help but feel like DC is screaming "Come over here, guys! We're cool, too! See? We've got boobies and cocaine here, too!!!" and it's kind of pathetic.

Yeah DC should know Marvel does smut way better than they ever will. I mean C'mon, how can they possibly beat the interracial anal scene between Jessica Jones and Luke Cage from the Marvel MAX series "Alias"? Just saying.

...what? Don't look at me like that. Its not like I got off on it...very often.

[behindthemask]

You know what I want to put a lot of debate and thought into my comments, Both companies have icons, amazing stories, great, bad, terrible, mean, angry, giant, loving, hereos, villains, storylines,plots,lots of drama and saga, epic battles, sorrow, loss, death, overcoming something, as we all face shit on a daily basis in 1 form or another. Comics helps us relate to others, eveny some, and the rest immortalize and place them upon your mantle of awesomeness. I love Marvel and DC, but when it comes to where my $$ goes it's with Marvel.

[tlasjr]

I think they both have their place. For me DC has always had the A tier with Superman Batman and Wonder Woman. Marvel had the B team with Spiderman Hulk and Captain America.
Basically for me growing up it was be on tv or in the movies or be gone.
The c tier would have been the flash, fantastic four Iron man.


One thing they both need to stop. killing People and bringing them back. Superman, Batman Wonder Woman and Green Lantern are dead. Good luck with Flash Green Arrow and Martian Manhunter. Marvel, no more Steve Rogers, Professer X, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Spiderman etc. Like Jud said. Sometimes dead is better

Second. Alignment changes. Magento and Dr. Doom are bad guys. Green Lantern does not massacre millions.

minor pet peeve ridiculous costumes. For example. Recent comic two pack with Wonderman and Quicksilver. Starts out with a bad guy in a sharp suit walkign through time viewing the kennedy assanation I was intrigued. Then he came back to the main timeline and his suit chnaged to a green and purple bit with a giant purple top hat. ....sigh.

[DogFashionDisco]

Agreed, that irritates me to no end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlasjr

I think they both have their place. For me DC has always had the A tier with Superman Batman and Wonder Woman. Marvel had the B team with Spiderman Hulk and Captain America.
Basically for me growing up it was be on tv or in the movies or be gone.
The c tier would have been the flash, fantastic four Iron man.


One thing they both need to stop. killing People and bringing them back. Superman, Batman Wonder Woman and Green Lantern are dead. Good luck with Flash Green Arrow and Martian Manhunter. Marvel, no more Steve Rogers, Professer X, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Spiderman etc. Like Jud said. Sometimes dead is better

Second. Alignment changes. Magento and Dr. Doom are bad guys. Green Lantern does not massacre millions.

minor pet peeve ridiculous costumes. For example. Recent comic two pack with Wonderman and Quicksilver. Starts out with a bad guy in a sharp suit walkign through time viewing the kennedy assanation I was intrigued. Then he came back to the main timeline and his suit chnaged to a green and purple bit with a giant purple top hat. ....sigh.

[thechris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DogFashionDisco

Agreed, that irritates me to no end.

Yep. It was cool with Superman, now they think it's the thang to do when they don't think people care enough and everyone knows they're just going to resurrect the characters anyway... It's just not cool anymore.

[proteus]

I totally disagree about Magneto,i think hes a better villain for his attempts at walking the right path,and failing(the deaths of the New Mutants on his watch etc)the Holocaust background was a great idea,because it ties into the whole genetic hatred thing,and early Magneto would have been an angry man,as he's got older,he's matured and tried to be a better man,i think he's possibly one the best comic characters there is,conflicted,by loss and grief,broken by his past,determined to protect "his people" the best he can by any means neccessary,he is the Malcolm X to Xavier's Martin Luther King,before he was just another one-sided super powered villain...

[ToyAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

Green Arrow was also supossed to spin off of Smallville. He was introduced for that purpose, and they did a lot of set up for it, and was greenlit. But just before they went into production, the cancelled it for no announced reason.

I think you meant Aquaman. They intro'd the Aquaman character on Smallville, and then a different actor was going to star in the spinoff Aquaman show. When the show got cancelled, they felt bad and hired that actor, Justin Hartley, to play Green Arrow on Smallville.

[trebleshot]

Well, I've said it before and it's been repeated in thread, so I'll just do a quick summary.

Pros
Marvel: more relatable, humanized characters. And not just heroes or villains. Even their supporting casts are more identifiable. Also, the villains are much more threatening, the heroes can and do lose (sometimes badly).

DC: Larger-than-life icons and (for most of them) heroes we idolize. The bad guys always lose, so we get to see heroes kick some ass. Less complicated storytelling, basically.

Cons
Marvel: The anti-hero plague. The unnecessary and stupid death/rebirth cycle. Too many crossovers and not enough separation between teams (it's a smaller list to name who is NOT an Avenger).

DC: Heroes and villains seem over-the-top and more fantastical. The rogues gallery is, with few exceptions, pathetic. The unnecessary and stupid death/rebirth cycle. The inability to stick to one continuity and avoid rewriting it seemingly every time a new creative team is brought on-board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechris

I dunno, man. I would say that Punisher, Batman, Daredevil, Spider-man and other heroes who don't have bulletproof flesh are all equally subject to the same discrimination of being able to be shot by bullets and killed. Yeah a couple of them have "heightened senses" but that doesn't make them bulletproof and one must be willing to allow for some fantasy to allow for them to dodge a hail of machine gun fire from multiple angles or possess armour of a grade capable of deflecting that much of a barrage.

In the extremely narrow situation of a gun fight, I would take Spider-Man out of that list before I would Batman. Peter has a Spider-Sense that warns him of danger to himself and he has the reflexes and agility to act on the early warning. He can literally dodge bullets, even if he can't see his attacker. The only exception is if one of the symbiotes shot him.

And while Bruce may not be as quick as Peter, I will say that Batman's costume is designed to give Bruce that extra couple of seconds so he can dodge gunfire. Why do you think his cape is ridiculously long? It's to mask his movements and keep the gunmen guessing on where to fire. Oh, yeah and apparently the cape's bulletproof now too, so that helps.

And in regards to iconic imagery, I'd put the X-logo right up there with the S-shield, Bat-signal, and Spider-symbol as the most widely-known. Certainly above Wonder Woman. Hell, I'd put Green Lantern's logo above Wonder Woman's, given his recent movie and current TV show.

[bmorr]

treble, im going to have to disagree with you on the DC pros. Pre-New 52, DC was notorious for having long drawn out storylines that only seasoned readers would understand. Thats part of the reason DC hit the reset button in the first place. Try explaining to someone the plot to Final Crisis lol.

[Salsa Verde]

The only real difference I see between the two is this:

Marvel: Everyone and their grandmother has a healing factor now, thanks to a lot of writers thinking Wolverine's is really cool.

DC: If you don't understand what's going on, wait ten years and they'll have a huge company wide reboot that you new readers can then jump on to.

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Could you clarify what exactly you mean by Miles ahead with New 52? While there are some great reads out of the first arcs of several books there was also a ton of crap too. Not to mention that some of their most stellar books in New 52 lack severe mainstream appeal for majority readers and have impacted the sales of those books; Swamp Thing, Animal Man and I Vampire come to mind.

So far I have enjoyed everything I have read New 52 related [some more than others]. What I love is that they are giving new readers a chance to get to know these lesser known characters a chance [all 3 Titles you named, are my favorite reads so far]. To me the story telling is better than Marvel, the art is better than Marvel and the rebooted versions of characters are, in my opinion, better than Marvel. Now, if DC had the Hulk I wouldn't even glance at Marvel [for reading material]. The last things I read that I really, really enjoyed that Marvel did was Annihilation all the way up to The Thanos Imperative. Dark Reign was pretty good along with Civil War. Loved WWH because, well, it is the Hulk!

As for DC, you got reading material like Killing Joke, The Long Halloween, Infinate Crisis, 52, O'Neil series of The Question. Then you got major events like Blackest Night, and Flashpoint.

So, as I said. Story telling goes to DC, characters [for most part] is Marve.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

So far I have enjoyed everything I have read New 52 related [some more than others]. What I love is that they are giving new readers a chance to get to know these lesser known characters a chance [all 3 Titles you named, are my favorite reads so far]. To me the story telling is better than Marvel, the art is better than Marvel and the rebooted versions of characters are, in my opinion, better than Marvel. Now, if DC had the Hulk I wouldn't even glance at Marvel [for reading material]. The last things I read that I really, really enjoyed that Marvel did was Annihilation all the way up to The Thanos Imperative. Dark Reign was pretty good along with Civil War. Loved WWH because, well, it is the Hulk!

As for DC, you got reading material like Killing Joke, The Long Halloween, Infinate Crisis, 52, O'Neil series of The Question. Then you got major events like Blackest Night, and Flashpoint.

So, as I said. Story telling goes to DC, characters [for most part] is Marve.

That's a fair opinion. I just wanted to hear the reasoning behind your previous statement. Cool.

[Tiberius]

I wish Marvel would just STICK with something though.

Bucky should of been Cap for awhile longer [a few years]
Commander Rogers should still be Commander Rogers!
Wolverine and Spider-Man need to stop being whores, seriously.
When they kill some one off, leave them DEAD, make it mean something [Johnny Storm]

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

I wish Marvel would just STICK with something though.

Bucky should of been Cap for awhile longer [a few years]
Commander Rogers should still be Commander Rogers!
Wolverine and Spider-Man need to stop being whores, seriously.
When they kill some one off, leave them DEAD, make it mean something [Johnny Storm]

Agreed.

Although I just picked up the Wolverine and the X-men hardcover today and I was pretty damn impressed. If all the Wolvie I saw was in this title and Uncanny X-Force all would be well for me. The only Spidey I read these days is the new Miles Morales Ultimate Spidey. I have avoided all the 616 related stories because there's too many to keep up with. Is there anything worth reading recently in 616 Spidey, anyone?

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

I wish Marvel would just STICK with something though.

Bucky should of been Cap for awhile longer [a few years]
Commander Rogers should still be Commander Rogers!
Wolverine and Spider-Man need to stop being whores, seriously.
When they kill some one off, leave them DEAD, make it mean something [Johnny Storm]

True enough on all these points, especially the dead points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Agreed.

Although I just picked up the Wolverine and the X-men hardcover today and I was pretty damn impressed. If all the Wolvie I saw was in this title and Uncanny X-Force all would be well for me. The only Spidey I read these days is the new Miles Morales Ultimate Spidey. I have avoided all the 616 related stories because there's too many to keep up with. Is there anything worth reading recently in 616 Spidey, anyone?

Yup if I had to pick one Marvel comic to read I would probably stick with Uncanny X-Force.

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmorr

treble, im going to have to disagree with you on the DC pros. Pre-New 52, DC was notorious for having long drawn out storylines that only seasoned readers would understand. Thats part of the reason DC hit the reset button in the first place. Try explaining to someone the plot to Final Crisis lol.

Sorry, I was more referring to the older DC stories especially during the early publication years for Batman and Superman. Definitely agree with you on the more modern stuff (Silver Age to present), which is why I made the comment about rebooting continuity.

As for Marvel, their stories always seem to have a consequence or a price must be paid in order for the heroes to win. They can't just have a clean story arc like this:

1. Villain does a bad thing
2. Hero chases/tracks villain down
3. Hero and villain fight
4. Hero wins; villain goes to jail

I'm not saying I want Marvel or DC to only write stories like this from now on, but it would be a nice change of pace from all the crossovers, team-ups and other huge story events. Those events should be special because they're rarely seen, not just because they're a big event.

[bmorr]

Big events in comics are what summer blockbusters are to the movie industry. Huge cash grabs, relatively. Honestly, i cant see reading comics without them anymore. Its the fact that the stories I read are leading up to something big. But in hindsight not every event is inherently a good story. A good example is the clusterf*** that was Chaos War. i bought into it and was so freakin confused

On a side note, anyone make a parallel to the Chaos King heavily resembling the Void/Sentry?

[tlasjr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

I wish Marvel would just STICK with something though.

Bucky should of been Cap for awhile longer [a few years]
Commander Rogers should still be Commander Rogers!
Wolverine and Spider-Man need to stop being whores, seriously.
When they kill some one off, leave them DEAD, make it mean something [Johnny Storm]

Bucky should be dead. There was a long time saying that no one stayed dead in comics except for Bucky. I was very disappointed to find out he not only survived world war two but killed kenedy and was now a 30 year old cap.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlasjr

Bucky should be dead. There was a long time saying that no one stayed dead in comics except for Bucky. I was very disappointed to find out he not only survived world war two but killed kenedy and was now a 30 year old cap.

so were a lot of people...until they actually read the stories. Now people are pissed he didn't remain Captain America for a longer period of time and were even more pissed when they thought they killed him off again.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

so were a lot of people...until they actually read the stories. Now people are pissed he didn't remain Captain America for a longer period of time and were even more pissed when they thought they killed him off again.

And you know, curiously enough people are exactly the same way about Jason Todd.

Only difference is everyone hated Todd enough to demand he be killed in the first place.
No one ever wanted to see him brought back, not only because he was so reviled, but because how meaningful his death was to the Batman mythos.
When it was announced he was coming back for real, everyone was dead against it.
Now, if they tried to get rid of him, everyone would freak out.

Jason Todd and Bucky... two of a kind. >_<

[FancyPants]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Sorry, I was more referring to the older DC stories especially during the early publication years for Batman and Superman. Definitely agree with you on the more modern stuff (Silver Age to present), which is why I made the comment about rebooting continuity.

As for Marvel, their stories always seem to have a consequence or a price must be paid in order for the heroes to win. They can't just have a clean story arc like this:

1. Villain does a bad thing
2. Hero chases/tracks villain down
3. Hero and villain fight
4. Hero wins; villain goes to jail

I'm not saying I want Marvel or DC to only write stories like this from now on, but it would be a nice change of pace from all the crossovers, team-ups and other huge story events. Those events should be special because they're rarely seen, not just because they're a big event.

Stolen from the simpsons: Make a comic where the avengers die on every page