[TheSymbiote]

When is it ok for characters in a comic book movie to change races from their original race in the comics?

Heimdall in Thor was black but in the comics he's white.
Kingpin in Daredevil was black but in the comics he's white.

In our opinion those changes weren't too important

We think that only the more iconic characters couldn't change races like
-The Black Panther
-Captain America
-Thor
-Spider-Man(Unless it's Miles Morales)
-Iron Man

But what about a character like Beast or mystique? They're blue anyway so would it matter if they started out as black or white?

Perry White will be played by Laurence Fishburne in the upcoming Man Of Steel Movie, Does that bother people?

What characters would you be ok with if their race changed in a movie?

[BigHanksCustoms]

Fishburne as Perry White? I can dig it, be interesting to see.

What really pisses me off is casting Conan O'Brian as Black Panther....

You raise a compelling question. What about Bruce Banner? If the Hulk turned green would it matter what race Banner is?

And shall we not even mention the Dark Knight....

[Jimmyo]

Kingpin was quite a big one because he is a Iconic character in Dardevil mythos,

It will always be B- or C list characters that get changed (you can blame Haile Berry and Catwoman for that)

Doc Ock could change as could any of the villians from spiderman and I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid as long as the character remained true to the personality that has evolved through the books.

[Crazy Jetty]

I think it really depends. Sometimes it's important, sometimes not.
Some of it depends on the actor... if you havd an absolutely perfect actor for the role, it shouldn't matter... as is the case with Kingpin. I think Michael Duncan Clark was just a brilliant choice.

Where I think it should matter is if a character is iconic as a particular race. Batman, Captain America, Superman, Black Panther, Storm, Danny Moonstar...

Also if a mantle is filled by multiple people, representing multiple races (Ironman and War Machine, the five earth Green Lanterns), then it should also matter as well. There's absolutely no point in making Ironman or Kyle Rayner black, when you have Rhodie and John.

But a really good and really appropriate actor, for the most part wouldn't matter what race they are. I honestly would not have complained had Denzel Washington been chosen for Ironman, had we never seen what a wonderful job Robert Downy Jr did.
I may have been a little puzzled why they didn't use him for War Machine instead, but I think he'd have done a great job as Stark.

I wouldn't care at all if they'd chosen Michael Duncan Clark for Ben Grimm, and The Thing. He'd have been brilliant.

(Or is his name Michael Clark Duncan? I hate being dyslexic)

As for Beast? At this point, he's been portrayed by three different actors, in three different movies, so I don't think it even matters anymore if he turns up black, lol.

Though, I'd be exceptionally pissed if Green Arrow turned up black. If only because my own archer character is in perpetual design phase because every time I nail a look for him, some version of GA comes along with a very simular look (Between Smallville, and various comic costumes). Being black is the only thing my guy has left that GA hasn't taken!

[snake5289]

MCD as Ben Grimm/The Thing is utter brilliance.

[Crazy Jetty]

I'm also reminded of a gag in a Robot Chicken sketch.

A Harry Potter sketch, Dumbledor turns up black. Harry says "Hey, you're not dumbledor!"
He responds with "Dood, I'm a different actor in every movie."

[Snowflakian]

It's moot to me unless their race is a pivotal point of the character, even then it depends on the story with it.

Characters that are full-masked are whatever to me. As the full mask generally hides any race whatsoever anyway which is typically the point. Barring certain exceptions like say Black Panther that has an entire basis around being african royalty.

Main costumed icons for the most part should remain as similiar to the iconic character they are based on in costume at least. Sometimes change is good though. Like Halle Berry as catwoman wasn't exactly a bad idea in adam west related many ways, but the script was pretty atrocius along with the costume design. The idea with a change is to be cooler than the original, not make it lamer(Shaq was a perfect john henry irons in Steel...The costume ruined it).

As long as the character is still the same in spirit, and isn't pure stereotype I'm fine with it overall. Nick Fury to Nick Fury really worked well, but both have that same spirit and not really any other aura other than "this dude can eff you up six ways to sunday."

Non-costumed icons must be able to evoke the spirit of the character or the essence of the source material minimum. Otherwise their ethnicity is whatever unless it inhibits an element of the story due to parentage or whatever other elements can dictate casting.

[BigHanksCustoms]

Anyone else old enough to remember Garrett Morris as Antman on Saturday Night Live?

That was Classic!



And I rather liked Ertha Kitt as CatWoman, Halle too....

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHanksCustoms

Anyone else old enough to remember Garrett Morris as Antman on Saturday Night Live?

That was Classic!



And I rather liked Ertha Kitt as CatWoman, Halle too....

I could actually get behind Chris Rock as Henry Pym in the Avengers movies.

[BigHanksCustoms]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

I could actually get behind Chris Rock as Henry Pym in the Avengers movies.

Hah!

See if you can find that Antma sketch on Youtube, it's hilarious! John Belushi was the Hulk I think, Dan Akroyd was the Flash.

They were all making fun of Antman's powers.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHanksCustoms

Hah!

See if you can find that Antma sketch on Youtube, it's hilarious! John Belushi was the Hulk I think, Dan Akroyd was the Flash.

They were all making fun of Antman's powers.

I've seen it before. xD

I'm just saying with Chris Rock's humor. Him as Antman would rock.
"Why's there a black goliath? Can't he just be Goliath?"
"Why isn't there one named White Goliath?"
"Like we can't just look and see the difference?" And continue on into umbrella jokes and size matters stuff.

[TheSymbiote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHanksCustoms

Fishburne as Perry White? I can dig it, be interesting to see.

What really pisses me off is casting Conan O'Brian as Black Panther....

You raise a compelling question. What about Bruce Banner? If the Hulk turned green would it matter what race Banner is?

And shall we not even mention the Dark Knight....

Why not mention the Dark Knight?
We wouldn't mind seeing a black bruce banner as long as the actor was a badass and the hulk looked like he does currently, with long hair and beard or bald.
Ruffalo is kinda pushing it because he's not exactly white to us lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmyo

Kingpin was quite a big one because he is a Iconic character in Dardevil mythos,

It will always be B- or C list characters that get changed (you can blame Haile Berry and Catwoman for that)

Doc Ock could change as could any of the villians from spiderman and I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid as long as the character remained true to the personality that has evolved through the books.

We woudln't care if Doc Ock, sandman, or Scorpion were another race. But certain spidey villains need to be a certain race. Like Rhino and Kraven who are Russian, and Norman Osborn and Eddie Brock just for being iconic.
We kinda think that if they ever use sandman in the new movies he would be a different race because sandman's design from SM3 was 100% accurate, so we think they wouldn't want the sandman to look like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

I could actually get behind Chris Rock as Henry Pym in the Avengers movies.

Really? lol

[Boba Fettuccini]

Let's not forget black Harvey Dent in Batman (1989). Billy Dee really could've rocked being Twoface if they'd let him. I think that's one change that really could have worked.

I don't mind race changes too much at all. I'd be miffed if they made Captain America something different, but black Fury, black Kingpin, black Heimdall all struck me as being really good characterization choices. So as long as you can still put out a quality movie, go fer it.

[synapse17]

I think all you guys are making some great points.

I remember the Ultimate Spidey fiasco that resulted in so much hate and ignorance. I was sad to see Peter get killed but it resulted in such a bad-ass new character. And one of my favorite Spider-Man costumes ever. But had this been done in the 616 universe I would have freaked out. Not because It couldn't be just as cool as it is in the Ultimate universe but because it would feel so forced and unnecessary. As if the soul point of the change was based not on story but some gimmick.

Spider-Mans my boy and I'll always feel as I did as a child when it comes to the bug. But I love that we can have our cake and eat it too with the addition of Miles in Ultimate. Now young blacks and hispanics can have the very same relationship with a Spider-Man as I did growing up. And that is freaking awesome.

Lets not kid ourselves, image matters. And looking similar to someone is the first step to relating to them. It's sad but that old reptilian brain is still hiding in the back of our heads. It really shouldn't mater but it's psychological. Of corse nobody cares if its someone they don't really follow or give a shit about. Of corse if you're black, asian, or hispanic and you're into comics there's a good chance some of your fav's are already another race than yourself.

It would be interesting to see the reaction to a hard core 70's Nick Fury fan that is black, and how he would have reacted to the change with Samuel Jackson. Maybe he would think it was awesome. Maybe he would see it as a betrayal of the source material.

And thats my main gripe. Not being true to the source material. We all know how ape-shit some are about little things like Spider-Man being bitten on the neck instead of the hand.
Imaging what these people would do if it was a black kids neck.

In the end these are preexisting characters who have been around for decades. fans have followed them their whole lives and changes like these are a kind of half ass way to bring diversity to very Caucasian universe. It also points out just how incapable Marvel and DC are with creating new characters. That can also be seen with the constant regurgitation of the same ideas. Like Rulk, Red She-Hulk, Scar, Daken, X23, the female Iron-Man and others. Now I'm not knocking these characters but it's kinda messed up.

I would like it if some of the preexisting minority characters could get a bit more love and it would be nice to see some fresh new ones added to the comic roaster.

I would like to see more diversity and I think both marvel and DC are trying, but I think that all races deserve their own Super-Man equivalent. That is an original headlining character that the fans can grow with and not some copycat.

But just changing someone's race seems disingenuous to me. It's not the best way in my opinion to go about bringing diversity to comics. But it has worked well in some cases, Miles and Fury, and I can see room for more. But what if the British wanted a British Spider-Man. where do you draw the line? Pun...

I think it's a neat idea to explore but maybe mostly in other universes. That way everyone gets something.

[Crazy Jetty]

@synapse

If we were talking about strictly comic books, and changing batman from white to black for no other reason, then I would agree with you 100%.

But the subject is specifically multi-racial casting in comicbook adaptations. Casting an actor of one race for a character that's established in the source material as another race.

[synapse17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

@synapse

If we were talking about strictly comic books, and changing batman from white to black for no other reason, then I would agree with you 100%.

But the subject is specifically multi-racial casting in comicbook adaptations. Casting an actor of one race for a character that's established in the source material as another race.

I feel you, but I see little consolation in it just pertaining to a film or other medium. If I'm a big fan boy I want that movie to mirror the book in as many ways as posable. And race isn't web shooters. It's a big change. I would love to see Miles on the big screen one day but not before I get to see as good a Tobey Maguire free adaptation of SpiderMan as possible. Now that's me being selfish, but that just how it is. And the reason I use Spidey as an example is because he's my fav. And B listers are favs to some so it's still not an easy call. it's all perspective. But I will say this, if it's a good enough film in the end it shouldn't mater. And if it bothers me or someone else then that would be our problems.

But the source material is still the source. So my points about the comics is that the movies they are making are based from them. Had they more diversity built in this would not be as much an issue as it is. I hope that helps you to see the relevance in my earlier points. Otherwise I'm just sorry you had to read all of it...

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by synapse17

I feel you, but I see little consolation in it just pertaining to a film or other medium. If I'm a big fan boy I want that movie to mirror the book in as many ways as posable. And race isn't web shooters. It's a big change. I would love to see Miles on the big screen one day but not before I get to see as good a Tobey Maguire free adaptation of SpiderMan as possible. Now that's me being selfish, but that just how it is. And the reason I use Spidey as an example is because he's my fav. And B listers are favs to some so it's still not an easy call. it's all perspective. But I will say this, if it's a good enough film in the end it shouldn't mater. And if it bothers me or someone else then that would be our problems.

But the source material is still the source. So my points about the comics is that the movies they are making are based from them. Had they more diversity built in this would not be as much an issue as it is. I hope that helps you to see the relevance in my earlier points. Otherwise I'm just sorry you had to read all of it...

I'm not. I enjoyed every word of your two posts on this subject.
I understand your POV perfectly, and definately respect it. It's just your original post seemed very geared towards the comic aspect of it (Such as bringing up Miles), I just didn't follow that you were talking about movies, too.
That's all.

[Snowflakian]

@synapse, the only real defense I have for those characters is Legacies and lasting impact on the world around them. It adds to the source material and also extends it to create new stories and characters that represent different kinds of people for others to relate to.

The same as changing races can help those races, more diverse aesthetics can help those that also share those features. Like hair color, eye color, or really anything that can cause some form of emotional attachment in the reader or viewer to continue on watching or reading.

That being said, there are areas where there is no defense. In particular parentage. If you've already established one character is caucasian, be sure any children or mothers line up to what's needed.

There's also problems in things like Avatar the Last airbender where race is key to the story itself. That's not to say Avatar messed that up. On the contrary it was the only thing it got right. -_-
They set up the earth nation as asian with a more chinese focus. Water nation was appropriately color shaded to be more offwhite ethnic of anything. Air nomads appeared more mixed like tibetan monks or european, and Fire nation was changed from asian/potential japanese to more towards a war driven india that worships fire.
Because of these 4 elements each representing a full on culture and race, they have to be seperate or explained appropriately to fit within confines of the defined world. So long as the changes make sense or fit with the desired story I'm whatever with it. Like Miles inheriting the mantle of the spider. He's part of the history now. The lasting impact of spider-man has turned into a legacy. Which is also why I like the children characters though, as it extends the legacy of other characters as well and their lasting impact on the world besides how it also gives more persona types for people to relate to or for others to look up to.
(For those curious, the bad part of avatar was the exposition, lackluster actions scenes, overtly condensed story especially on the only other highlight of season 1, and an utterly lackluster avatar state finale. Series could be salvaged for 2, but damn that was a weak start.)

I don't like the poof randomly so and so iconic hero is now this barring alt-universe stuff which is different or even reality bending mcguffin, but I do let that slide for background civilian characters who could all be frank sinatra lookalikes or elvis and I probably wouldn't care.

[tlasjr]

For the most part for me it's the actor not their race that matters. I think it's easier for Marvel charecters as Marvel/Disney has complete control.
Hence we have both wite and black nick fuy's.

On the other hand look at G.I. Joe. Ripcord was white for more than 20 years. The movie studio decided to take the character and change the race and even what he does. No there is no white ricpcord.
And Roadblock, one of the a list characters, the hulking brute of the team who holds a browning 50 cal like an assault rife kept his race but became a ninja?

And yes, non traditional races changing can be a problem also. For example in the new Bay epic The TMNT will be aliens which means they are not mutants, not like related to terrestrial turtles and thus not trained in the Japanese martial art Ninjitsu.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlasjr

For the most part for me it's the actor not their race that matters. I think it's easier for Marvel charecters as Marvel/Disney has complete control.
Hence we have both wite and black nick fuy's.

On the other hand look at G.I. Joe. Ripcord was white for more than 20 years. The movie studio decided to take the character and change the race and even what he does. No there is no white ricpcord.
And Roadblock, one of the a list characters, the hulking brute of the team who holds a browning 50 cal like an assault rife kept his race but became a ninja?

And yes, non traditional races changing can be a problem also. For example in the new Bay epic The TMNT will be aliens which means they are not mutants, not like related to terrestrial turtles and thus not trained in the Japanese martial art Ninjitsu.

Not enough on TMNT is known, it may still be mutated through alien interference of some kind which would still make them of an alien nature when simplified and telling people.

Roadblock I'm fine with as it's the freaking rock and just an excuse for his action figure, the same to bruce willis. The movie-verse is it's own universe anyway so the characters can be any race. Though sometimes there's some bleedover like with Renegades. GI Joe is one of those it doesn't really matter to me on race though barring the must bes. Those to me are only things like Scarlet must be a red head, Snakes eyes must have his iconic visor, Jinx must be asian, and things like that. Then again, I guess I'm not really attached to those characters as their race, but the existence of them as something different also doesn't nullify their past material either.

[Torn Prince]

I always wondered what it would have been like if Billy Dee had been allowed to become Two Face, and it would have happened had Burton been allowed to direct Batman Forever. Instead we got a turd. That withstanding, certain characters' race should never be changed. The Joker is one of those, as is Scarecrow, as is Batman, as is Dr. Doom, as is Wolverine, as is Deathstroke. These are the ones that jump right out at me and say NO to the race change. Michael Clark Duncan made a damn good Kingpin and was really the only redeemable part about that piece of crap Daredevil movie(needs a reboot bad). I could see an African American Killer Croc, he's been portrayed as such before in some of the comics, Clayface wouldn't matter, neither would a character like Shocker. Halle Berry was absolutely atrocious as Catwoman, and I hate that movie so much that I wouldn't wipe my a** with it. It wasn't so much that Catwoman was black, that didn't matter to me...although I do like her better as a pale black haired white chick. But I'm sure my qualms with that movie are the same as many of yours. Point being, some characters it would be okay...others, hell no. While I'm here, if in the future Domino shows up in a movie(come on Deadpool movie) she better be caucasian...I mean chick is perma-white anyway! lol

[synapse17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

@synapse, the only real defense I have for those characters is Legacies and lasting impact on the world around them. It adds to the source material and also extends it to create new stories and characters that represent different kinds of people for others to relate to.

The same as changing races can help those races, more diverse aesthetics can help those that also share those features. Like hair color, eye color, or really anything that can cause some form of emotional attachment in the reader or viewer to continue on watching or reading.

That being said, there are areas where there is no defense. In particular parentage. If you've already established one character is caucasian, be sure any children or mothers line up to what's needed.

There's also problems in things like Avatar the Last airbender where race is key to the story itself. That's not to say Avatar messed that up. On the contrary it was the only thing it got right. -_-
They set up the earth nation as asian with a more chinese focus. Water nation was appropriately color shaded to be more offwhite ethnic of anything. Air nomads appeared more mixed like tibetan monks or european, and Fire nation was changed from asian/potential japanese to more towards a war driven india that worships fire.
Because of these 4 elements each representing a full on culture and race, they have to be seperate or explained appropriately to fit within confines of the defined world. So long as the changes make sense or fit with the desired story I'm whatever with it. Like Miles inheriting the mantle of the spider. He's part of the history now. The lasting impact of spider-man has turned into a legacy. Which is also why I like the children characters though, as it extends the legacy of other characters as well and their lasting impact on the world besides how it also gives more persona types for people to relate to or for others to look up to.
(For those curious, the bad part of avatar was the exposition, lackluster actions scenes, overtly condensed story especially on the only other highlight of season 1, and an utterly lackluster avatar state finale. Series could be salvaged for 2, but damn that was a weak start.)

I don't like the poof randomly so and so iconic hero is now this barring alt-universe stuff which is different or even reality bending mcguffin, but I do let that slide for background civilian characters who could all be frank sinatra lookalikes or elvis and I probably wouldn't care.

Man You lost me there. Not that you're not making sense, I just have no experience with the Air Bender. It's seems like a good show, I'v just never gotten around to watching it.

As to Rulk and the others, some are cool and fit the ethos well. Others feel forced and it leads to feelings of over saturation. I'm all for legacy. But some of this is simple cashing in on likenesses. I mean did Betty really need to hulk out too..?

When it comes to supporting casts I'm right there with you. I could see JJ being black. But why have all these race changes been white to black? What about latino, indian, arab, or asian folk. I'll support any efforts to make a solid movie no mater the changes. But I would like these decisions to be made with a great deal of thought as to who can pull of the overall persona.

All and all I just like continuity. Thats why I enjoy the ultimate universe and AOA. It give so much freedom to play and make creative changes. Some good some not so much, but It's fun because in the end 616 is preserved.

Something I would like to see in the comics is a getting on in years. the death of major characters and the birth of new heros. It seems to me that Marvel/DC have been riding the coat tails of previous generations work and creations for a while now. And while I want to hold on as much as the next guy. It would be nice to see some real growth. Maybe in a another universe but ether way it would give license to start a fresher universe that's inspired by the legacy of old but stands on its own. This could also help in adapting a more multicultural universe that serves everyone.

But now I'm wondering if race should be an issue at all. In a perfect world would we even think about it in any-other terms than who gives the best performance? This idea would leave everyone subject to these types of changes not just the B listers.

But I can't say for sure. It's a difficult subject. It's great fun and a wonderful way for kids to be introduced to social issues. To play with ideas ranging from right and wrong to science and natural phenomenon. I want all kids to feel as included as I did growing up.

[TheSymbiote]

There are so many good points that we wanted to respond to, that by the time we finished reading it all we forgot what we wanted to say lol

[Snowflakian]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I like many of the ultimate universe changes and recent son of fury change in 616 marvel. It's a legacy carrying on the mantle in what seems like a permanent fashion. It's building onto the original character's legacy and making the heritage grow.

And I love Red She-Hulk. Betty being able to let out years of repressed aggression from everything is an interesting notion. I like it better than the whole Daughter of hulk angle or cousin of hulk angle. Though tbh, I like the daughter of hulk angle more than the cousin one. Wife and daughter make the hulk seem very Frankenstein's monster. Ditto to Skaar his son and yes even his father in law. That really just makes the hulk family work for me though in taste. Think about it, "Bride of Hulk" "Daughter of Hulk" "Son Of Hulk"(which is also part of a larger 'of mars' only using hulk instead of john carter type nod imho), "Father in law of Hulk". It really sells that entire classic Frankenstein film title style even. Some to even comedic effect. xD

[TheSymbiote]

One thing we wouldn't like if they changed a characters race would be if they made black characters that spoke in ebonics.