[Psycho Pirate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

And sales seem to be doing just fine post-Vonner. The line is still going, so retailers are still buying it enough to justify its production. It's selling well enough that retailers have enough confidence to pick up Comic Packs as an expansion of it again, something that the end of Vonner's run did no favors. Do you have any evidence beyond anecdotal to support a decline in sales post-Vonner?

Serious question that probably sound like a smart ass comment:

Do *you* have any evidence beyond anecdotal to support a homesteads in sales post-Vonner? I don't know of any public source of that information.

If I had to guess one, I'd put my money on less sales. There are fewer waves per year, no more movie-specific lines (beyond one or two figures, including repacks), less big box shelf space devoted to it, and a general trend of toys losing market share to video games and game apps. At a minimum, they would have to increase sales per wave to break even in sales.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Pirate

Serious question that probably sound like a smart ass comment:

Do *you* have any evidence beyond anecdotal to support a homesteads in sales post-Vonner? I don't know of any public source of that information.

If I had to guess one, I'd put my money on less sales. There are fewer waves per year, no more movie-specific lines (beyond one or two figures, including repacks), less big box shelf space devoted to it, and a general trend of toys losing market share to video games and game apps. At a minimum, they would have to increase sales per wave to break even in sales.

Just that production hasn't slowed. Let's call Vonner's last series series 4, end of 2011 to start of 2013 since he left in 2012. 24 numbered single carded figures released. Marvel Infinite series one, the Hyperion wave to the GotG released 24 as well. Comic packs slowed to just 2 releases in 2012. Comic backs are now back so retail has enough faith in brand strength to support them again.

Movie lines are a separate issue and have far less to do with Vonner (especially since he wasn't on movie lines) than they do with the glut of Iron Man 2 and subsequently Avengers and Iron man 3 figures diluting brand strength. Also why the 6" movie figures are now mixed and folded in with the Legends comic brand

[Universe]

After stalking my local TRU for the last three days, they finally made shelf space for the new wave and 2 packs, came there this morning at open and got the new wave but 2 packs still comng. So glad to finally find these!

[Jay West]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universe

After stalking my local TRU for the last three days, they finally made shelf space for the new wave and 2 packs, came there this morning at open and got the new wave but 2 packs still comng. So glad to finally find these!

Awesome!

[Jay West]

So people are border line fighting in a 3.75 thread about why there is or isn't more 3.75 product. Obviously most here are in favor of 3.75. Without detailed sales numbers we will never know for sure why the switch happened to favor 6 inch again. I don't see 6 inch blowing off the shelves for what it's worth. What I do see is practically every 6 inch figure so for whatever reason distribution seems to be better than at the end of the 3.75 heyday. Sure some 6 inch figures sell, but the same ones sit there right along with the same 3.75 inch peg warming figures. What I do think is BS is the Hasbro makes more money with the 6 inch figures. It's about $3.30 an inch for both. And there is less articulation on the 3.75 guys now. I know that is not very accurate, but does anyone really think if they made the 3.75 line up the same as the 6 inch line up shown at Toy Fair that Hasbro wouldn't make money?

[Madame Warlock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukmu

To be fair, Dwight has went on record saying, " 3.75 for kids and 6" for collectors" more than once. In fact this ToyFair he introduced the 6" stuff saying, for true collectors. Take that as you will, but I consider it an insult.

A small hobby of mine is following Hasbro from a business standpoint. I even have a few shares invested. The sales for Marvel specific lines vary widely even from the source. There is no smoking gun to point in either direction pre and post Vonner. My educated guess would be, yes sales dipped BUT after he left (call it Devine Timing) the movie lines came out. With the runaway success of the Avengers Assemble film being the number three Christmas toys for 2012. It is that line that drew me into the toy game myself.

Marvel has just recently become so mainstream it isn't even a side thing anymore. Things were better with MU, that is a fact, by better I mean 'happier'. Distribution, card art and articulation all suffered BADLY under the failed MI brand. Vonner leaves the line becomes MI and goes from Wasp to Vulture in a few years on Dwight's watch. He does snicker at 3.75" publicly and has said that he keeps 6" figures. All that data points toward Universe being closer to right than he is wrong. That said,at least wave one of MLS has seen improved card art, distribution and articulation is slowly returning.

Yea it is about profit and NOT about bias of a single person. Shit sucks right now and it is fun and very trendy to "internetty" and bash Hasbro and Dwight. They've taken so much from us ArsGratiaArtis.... must take this from us?!?

I would like to start a rumour that Dwight Stall is a cross dressing nazi who beats dogs and is responsible for ozone depletion.

that's classist as fuck too tbh. i'm poor so i can only afford the occasional loose 1/18th fig. Even if I wanted the MLs, they cost €30-35 here. At point they cost €12! And in real terms you'd tend to see them reduced to a tenner. Granted they look better, for the most part, than during Toybiz's tenure and have more stuff, but still. It's an increase that's easily above both that and inflation.

i don't have the money for big epic display cases etc. so i don't have space for the 6ers too. i'm living in a moderately spacious apartment now but it took years to get to this point, and i could well be chucked out and have to live in a smaller space.

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universe

After stalking my local TRU for the last three days, they finally made shelf space for the new wave and 2 packs, came there this morning at open and got the new wave but 2 packs still comng. So glad to finally find these!

Went hunting yesterday myself, it's good to see that the 3.75 are getting plenty restock though, and is that where the 2 packs going to be, cool can't wait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Targets have a civil war 2.5'' 9 pack. No ant-man in it though.
Marvel Avengers Age of Ultron Target Exclusive A... : Target

Yeah those are horrible...

[Madame Warlock]

tbh Hasbro(and Mattel) have a long history of making questionable/indecipherable business decisions. people who think it must be done for some unseen reason to maximise profit have too much faith in their competency - sure they're greedy capitalists so that's what they THINK they're doing but you'd be surprised how many ridiculous obstacles there are to basic supply and demand. In particular concepts like "girl action figures don't sell" which isn't true. The toy industry is full of self fulfilling prophecies too, where people get the idea something shouldn't work so they sabotage it. I think this is the problem when you have actual nerds inputting into it, esp. wealthy ones that afford for the larger, more expensive figures so assume every other "collector" can too.

I was mad at the change to 4" when it happens but also kind of excited. 5 years later we were made to switch back if we wanted to be "Real" collectors. It's pretty obvious the market can support both scales as it has done for some time. In Mattel's case for example, do they really think having 6-7 different iterations of the same character, 4 of the same version, in the same or same-ish scale is the best idea market wise? As dodgy as the Infinite Heroes line was at least it was something. Quite why they scrapped it when Marvel Universe became a successful was bemusing. The Multiverse stuff was a good sign they were doing the MU thing, and then that disappeared. Similarly - it seemed like the 4" figs were in for a revival when they got rebranded as Legends. We were getting some awesome new out of left field figs like Spider-man Noir, Femthor, Classic Guardians, etc. that the 6 inchers weren't getting. Then we all got a Carol Danvers with a dodgy paint job and not a single new fig at Toyfair. What happened?

None of this really screams to me that these guys have a clue what they're doing. The problem is that these businesses try to operate on the idea of what their customer base SHOULD look like, which is one of the reasons why there's crazy gender segregation in toys perhaps now more than ever. They like to have set demographics to market to, and don't like when they overlap. Unfortunately more and more it's obvious that this is a terrible strategy that people are becoming more conscious of especially eg. with the reintroduction of feminism and race politics into the mainstream. Segregated marketing really needs to go away. The idea of "Smaller scale for kids, larger scale for collectors" is one particular example of that market segregation - and you can see it with the new Star Wars stuff with the 6" black series being more readily available than the 3.75" stuff. Similarly, the 4" Movie figs were largely nuked in favour of the 2.5" to make way for playsets - because smaller figs are for kids, and we can make these more cheaply that way and market to parents who don't have a ton of space for larger playsets.

Hasbro & Mattel need to accept that you can't divide up the market so easily between boy and girl, kid and adult, etc. and that you can market a lot of this stuff to pretty much anyone. As people have noted the shelfwarming patterns don't support what Hasbro & Mattel are doing. The thing with 4 inch figs(esp. the slightly larger 4 inch over 3.75 inch) is that they were the perfect versatile size to market to both kids and collectors, as they were just about large enough to show off as cool figs and small enough for kids to fit in their pocket, army build or to make small playsets for. It's probably why most trading figs in Japan are around this size. The 2.5" stuff has little appeal to collectors. You can still see a lot of Age of Ultron stuff on the pegs. Kids were already used to the 4" scale from the last few movies - switching to 2.5" from GotG onwards was a really bad decision.

I also dislike that we have no real way of communicating with the Hasbro designers whereas toybiz made themselves more readily available. I'd love to ask when wtf they're thinking.

[Madame Warlock]

also Kieron Gillen liked my America Chavez! Yay!

https://twitter.com/PrincessOtC/stat...37577847013379

[Universe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madame Warlock

tbh Hasbro(and Mattel) have a long history of making questionable/indecipherable business decisions. people who think it must be done for some unseen reason to maximise profit have too much faith in their competency - sure they're greedy capitalists so that's what they THINK they're doing but you'd be surprised how many ridiculous obstacles there are to basic supply and demand. In particular concepts like "girl action figures don't sell" which isn't true. The toy industry is full of self fulfilling prophecies too, where people get the idea something shouldn't work so they sabotage it. I think this is the problem when you have actual nerds inputting into it, esp. wealthy ones that afford for the larger, more expensive figures so assume every other "collector" can too.

I was mad at the change to 4" when it happens but also kind of excited. 5 years later we were made to switch back if we wanted to be "Real" collectors. It's pretty obvious the market can support both scales as it has done for some time. In Mattel's case for example, do they really think having 6-7 different iterations of the same character, 4 of the same version, in the same or same-ish scale is the best idea market wise? As dodgy as the Infinite Heroes line was at least it was something. Quite why they scrapped it when Marvel Universe became a successful was bemusing. The Multiverse stuff was a good sign they were doing the MU thing, and then that disappeared.

None of this really screams to me that these guys have a clue what they're doing. The problem is that these businesses try to operate on the idea of what their customer base SHOULD look like, which is one of the reasons why there's crazy gender segregation in toys perhaps now more than ever. They like to have set demographics to market to, and don't like when they overlap. Unfortunately more and more it's obvious that this is a terrible strategy that people are becoming more conscious of especially eg. with the reintroduction of feminism and race politics into the mainstream. Segregated marketing really needs to go away. The idea of "Smaller scale for kids, larger scale for collectors" is one particular example of that market segregation - and you can see it with the new Star Wars stuff with the 6" black series being more readily available than the 3.75" stuff. Similarly, the 4" Movie figs were largely nuked in favour of the 2.5" to make way for playsets - because smaller figs are for kids, and we can make these more cheaply that way and market to parents who don't have a ton of space for larger playsets.

Hasbro & Mattel need to accept that you can't divide up the market so easily between boy and girl, kid and adult, etc. and that you can market a lot of this stuff to pretty much anyone.

I agree with this but instead of capitalism, it is more the human nature of it. People are fans of their own creations. I despise the 2.5" line and Mashers. While there are applications to any toyline, my bias of them keeps me from ever buying them, even when on clearance for a buck (although the Antman is the gem and I will be getting him). Mashers, I could use a couple Dr Doom(s) to make for Doombots. But would I buy a whole wave? Hell no! Just like Dwight, he is a human being, therefore he has his own opinions, bias, and preferences. He happens to be in a position to manipulate his personal agenda and it is evidenced by how many Legends and features the line has picked up. They have started to mimic the Japanese imports by adding accessories and heads to make an appeal to that collector market. I applaud his efforts because he has done very well for Legends.

The thing is we still exist, we would like the same effort or a new person to run that line who has the same pull Dwight does. We want figures, plain and simple. The ideal is of course, to revert back to the direction they were heading with progressing molds that added articulation (Herc buck/she hulk), not take it away.

As consumers we ought to make a big stink about it, not to desuade collectors, but to ensure we still have a breath in the fight to improve not degenerate the line. We're human too after all, not just "consumers and numbers".

[Madame Warlock]

I don't know how much kids actually like the Mashers. Obviously they're selling to some degree but they seem like one of those forced gimmicks that's outstayed their welcome. If they scaled those, maybe the 2.5ers and some of the other stuff back as Novelty items(which they should be) they'd have room for 4" again.

[Madame Warlock]

you know i just realised what's kind of shady. we've all assumed the shift away from x-men was largely influenced by marvel's lack of rights, but there's also the element that x-men has traditionally done better with minorities. since Dave Vonner left we've seen little in the way of X-men.

probably a coincidence, but I get the feeling Vonner would have pushed for x-men more than the current crowd. at the very least we'd have gotten a less shitty Bishop figure.

[Universe]

This page needs pictures:

First up, Ms Marvel (I actually got decent paint apps on mine):





Spiderman Noir ( my personal favorite of the wave):


Added a coat and gun:



Yondu:




Black Panther (bad eye paint app so I threw on my MU wave 1 head):





Ulik:




And Triton (really bad elbow joints):



I passed on Spiderman M and Mark 1, just had no need for them. Pretty good wave I must say.

[Ninjinister]

I need to track down the rest of the Ms. Marvels. I only have Dark Ms. M and Carol Cap.

And yes, we need Kamala in this scale. I love the hell out of that book.

[Autobot_Goldbug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Just that production hasn't slowed. Let's call Vonner's last series series 4, end of 2011 to start of 2013 since he left in 2012. 24 numbered single carded figures released. Marvel Infinite series one, the Hyperion wave to the GotG released 24 as well. Comic packs slowed to just 2 releases in 2012. Comic backs are now back so retail has enough faith in brand strength to support them again.

Production hasn't slowed? Then where are all the figures????
My Target has never gotten past the big time Spidey wave.
Walmart here DOES NOT carry any in this scale.
Toys R Us never got past GOTG wave. Plenty of translucent Wonder Men to be had.
I think Hasbro tricked retailers by renaming them Legends and that is why they are back.

[Madame Warlock]

I used the Warbird outfit for a custom, though I need to redo that custom a bit now anyway. I have the classic Ms. marvel with the updo hair and obv. the Cap Marvel. I would have liked the long hair version too look more like EMH version but too hard to find.

[Psycho Pirate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madame Warlock

you know i just realised what's kind of shady. we've all assumed the shift away from x-men was largely influenced by marvel's lack of rights, but there's also the element that x-men has traditionally done better with minorities. since Dave Vonner left we've seen little in the way of X-men.

probably a coincidence, but I get the feeling Vonner would have pushed for x-men more than the current crowd. at the very least we'd have gotten a less shitty Bishop figure.

At the very least, why didn't they use the Rage arms on Bishop?

[hasbroherofan]

I can't imagine that is the case. At this week's Toy Fair alone we got Black Panther, Miles Morales, Silk, Rage, and Nico Minoru, plus two different Sam Wilsons and a new War Machine. We also had it more or less confirmed that the upcoming Baron Mordo figure is gonna be using Chiwetel Ejiofor's likeness instead of the original comic version.

And the Civil War line in general has a fairly heavy presence from Panther, Falcon, and War Machine.

[Kernel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universe

As consumers we ought to make a big stink about it, not to desuade collectors, but to ensure we still have a breath in the fight to improve not degenerate the line. We're human too after all, not just "consumers and numbers".

^ Yes! Sorry if my rant got everyone off track, but I actually enjoy a healthy debate and I feel like our voices need to be heard.

On the flip side, maybe the rebrand, or return to calling these 3.75" legends is working. My TRU put up a ton of empty spaces for the new 2 packs and for the first time had the new wave in ages.

[Kernel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

You're free to express your opinion and to not spend your money. That's the best way to express it. But really, it's business. If the profit was with this scale they'd push it more. Hasbro doesn't care about any scale, they care about what's going to make them the most money. And what makes 6" or 12" dolls but not 4"? And why is doll a pejorative for you?

Target, one of the major retailers, is calling the 6" figures dolls. Plus some of the 6" collectors call 3.75" toys happy meal toys. It's just a little zinger back:

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kernel

Target, one of the major retailers, is calling the 6" figures dolls. Plus some of the 6" collectors call 3.75" toys happy meal toys. It's just a little zinger back

Why is that your choice of zinger though? Why are you using doll as a pejorative? Happy Meal Toy implies a cheap product, one packed-in with something else and not worthy of sale itself. Why is doll negative to you? Do you feel it emasculates collectors of other scales?

[Ninjinister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Why is that your choice of zinger though? Why are you using doll as a pejorative? Happy Meal Toy implies a cheap product, one packed-in with something else and not worthy of sale itself. Why is doll negative to you? Do you feel it emasculates collectors of other scales?

Ignoring your apparent psuedo-feminist rant starter attempt, have you not noticed that outside of ones that cost hundreds of dollars, dolls are pretty cheapo product as well? I mean I can't think of any mass retail doll that has more than five PoA and super basic paint apps.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjinister

Ignoring your apparent psuedo-feminist rant starter attempt, have you not noticed that outside of ones that cost hundreds of dollars, dolls are pretty cheapo product as well? I mean I can't think of any mass retail doll that has more than five PoA and super basic paint apps.

Considering GI Joe itself came from dolls as did much of the action figure market today, your point isn't really all that valid.

And what you see, isn't what you get with "dolls".
Take the recently done exclusive swamp thing for example. It used "doll" tech to hide the articulation entirely. Such practices are actually common among Barbie dolls. Many have elbows, knees, and other pose potential, but you can't see it because of how the plastic covers it. It varies as greatly as "action figures" do.

Though honestly, "Action figures" are dolls. That term evolved from the need to separate girl toys from boy toys as marketers felt selling dolls to boys wouldn't go over with parents. The term came from the original GI Joe doll which was essentially a ken doll. They marketed it as an action figure, and the rest is history.

So a "barbie doll" is an action figure and the reverse is true too. Though then you also get into blanket statements that include plushies and other forms of cloth material made items with plastic heads, and other similar products that are under "dolls" as "Doll" became the blanket term for girl toys while action figures were used as the term to market to boys.

There really is no difference other than the forced gender perceptions of marketers.

More directly, the term Action Figure is a sub-type of the more broader term Doll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Why is that your choice of zinger though? Why are you using doll as a pejorative? Happy Meal Toy implies a cheap product, one packed-in with something else and not worthy of sale itself. Why is doll negative to you? Do you feel it emasculates collectors of other scales?

As for "happy meal toys". Mcdonalds has done some awesome ones over time. The Power Rangers line they did for the 90s movie, and the He-man 2k3 ones they did are comparable to store releases. But they also had a cost that under today's standards would lean more towards what we see from the lower priced 3.75 avengers, green lantern, and man of steel figures. Detailing was pretty damn good too. I still keep that He-man and Orko in my 3.75 displays.

So if that's what you mean by happy meal toys. I wish mcdonalds would do more like that! The ones they have today are more towards cheap party store trinkets you'd find in a dollar store.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukmu

I would like to start a rumour that Dwight Stall is a cross dressing nazi who beats dogs and is responsible for ozone depletion.

*Sigh* and you wonder why Hasbro is moving farther and farther away from wanting to interact with fans at all.

[Psycho Pirate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Why is that your choice of zinger though? Why are you using doll as a pejorative? Happy Meal Toy implies a cheap product, one packed-in with something else and not worthy of sale itself. Why is doll negative to you? Do you feel it emasculates collectors of other scales?

Yes.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Why is that your choice of zinger though? Why are you using doll as a pejorative? Happy Meal Toy implies a cheap product, one packed-in with something else and not worthy of sale itself. Why is doll negative to you? Do you feel it emasculates collectors of other scales?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Pirate

Yes.

The question then is why one feels the need to attempt to degrade other collectors. I don't agree with the Happy Meal comparison, but it's a criticism of the product. If the "doll" appellation is is meant to be emasculating to the collectors of other scales, it's crossing the line from criticism of a product to attacking other people. Why you feel emasculation is a good way to degrade others is problematic itself when you're using normative Western perceptions of masculinity as a metric, since toy collecting in any form is generally seen as an unmasculine activity. This is ignoring the fact that many of these other collectors aren't even men, so emasculation becomes a bit of a moot point. Why the need to attack other collectors at all, even with a flawed and passive aggressive method?