[Startaiger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

A white Black Panther wouldn't make sense because of a very specific reason. He's the king of an isolationist African country with no contact with the outside world.

You know, since Wakanda is a fictive country, & if I follow wbat you're saying, it wouldn't matter at all if it wasn't located in Africa as long as the story is the same (Vibranium + isolated country + a king with super powers).
If you locate it, say, on an island in south pacific with asian typed population, what would be the difference in term of story-telling?
Except, everybody would be angry cause this wouldn't be the Black Panther we all know & like.

[TheBlueMarvel]

...ams i doin' the emojis right???

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Startaiger

You know, since Wakanda is a fictive country, & if I follow wbat you're saying, it wouldn't matter at all if it wasn't located in Africa as long as the story is the same (Vibranium + isolated country + a king with super powers).
If you locate it, say, on an island in south pacific with asian typed population, what would be the difference in term of story-telling?
Except, everybody would be angry cause this wouldn't be the Black Panther we all know & like.

No, because Black Panther holds a very specific significance as the first black superhero. Marvel isn't stupid enough to change that. The Ancient One? Sure why not.

Conversely, there's no real significance in people like Deadshot or Jimmy Olsen being white.

Regardless, the other reason, and it should be obvious enough that it shouldn't even be worth mentioning, is the racial makeup of superhero films in general. You're never gonna see Marvel making Black Panther into a white guy because the MCU as a franchise has very few minority heroes, and no leading ones as of yet. They're not gonna pass up the big opportunity of being able to trumpet that they're making their first black superhero movie.

You could make the argument that racebending white people into minorities being seen as positive while the vice versa being derided as racist and offensive is a double standard, but it's one that only exists because the diversity situation in Hollywood is so dire to begin with. You're never gonna see Deadshot or Nick Fury drawing the level of controversy as Michael Jackson's casting because we live in a world where the under representation of minorities in cinema is already a huge hot button issue. Nobody wants to be seen as adding to that problem. That should be fairly obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

...ams i doin' the emojis right???

I'm feeling the head against the wall one right now, LOL.

Quote:

People are bitching up a storm about a white man being cast to play Michael Jackson. However, those very same people have no problem with a black man playing a white super hero.

I know, right? It's almost like Michael Jackson was a real person and comic book superheroes are fictional characters who have already been reinterpreted in countless ways!

[TheBlueMarvel]

@hasbroherofan

LOL Yeah, I'm sure there is a little bit of something in there for everyone...kinda like Marvel Ah-Hah! See what I did there!?

...there's a point at which something stops being an honest discussion of ideas and becomes more of an exercise in taking pot shots at one another...

[Startaiger]

Black Panther is no longer "the 1st black super-hero", in the MCU, it was War Machine, & b4 him it was Wesley Snipes as Blade, so it wouldn't make a big difference to have an asian actor to portray him in this days & age.

[SymbiSpidey]

It's like how hasbroherofan said.....people care more about changing the race of a black superhero because there are, relatively speaking, few black superheroes in the first place. Hell, that's probably the reason why most of the black superheroes we already have even exist in the first place. Luke Cage, Black Panther, War Machine, Falcon, Storm. All were created to provide positive black portrayals in the comic book medium.

I'd imagine it's a different thing with white superheroes. Many of them, especially the more popular ones, are white because back in those days, nobody was trying to show us a positive minority character because people still saw blacks, hispanics, asians, etc., as lesser beings.

Like I said, I'm not suggesting we start changing a character's race solely for the sake of diversity, but changing a white character to a different race doesn't really carry the same significance as changing a black character to a different race.

[ChuckSass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by En Sabah Nerd

Von said it looked like Marvel Now. It's in the part you quoted. I really liked her Now costume, I thought it was pretty elegant.

then totally ignore me over here. I agree, she doesn't need anything big and clunky. I do like her new suit though. Her new book is really quite good

[Spyne98]

I think changing race only really comes into play if it has been an aspect to their character. Like it's been said, Black Panther is king of an African nation. It would be odd to change that to a different race or something. Deadshot, for example, has nothing in his comic history that he has done because he is white. Even Electro, as long as they get the master of electricity part down, it doesn't really matter if he's black or white. That's how I see it

[Dreadnox]

[Jmacq1]

Well, the whole race conversation went pretty much exactly in the direction I figured it would. Nothing new to see here.

Just a note though: "Make a new character if you want a <insert race here> character!" is not really a valid argument in these cases. There are dozens if not hundreds of new characters of various races, creeds, orientations, etc... created every year. Very, very, VERY few of them stick. They might be hot for a little while, but after a few years things cool off and suddenly they're wallpaper or cannon fodder in major crossovers and rarely seen elsewhere.

[Dr Kain]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

There are dozens if not hundreds of new characters of various races, creeds, orientations, etc... created every year. Very, very, VERY few of them stick.

Is that our fault? No. That's on the comic companies to make them stick. If they don't have the writing to actually make the characters more than a marketing gimmick then that is their fault.

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Startaiger

Black Panther is no longer "the 1st black super-hero", in the MCU, it was War Machine.

You left out the part where I said "lead". War Machine and Falcon are cool but they're sidekicks. They aren't getting their own movies anytime soon.

Regardless, continually using Black Panther as a hypothetical "But people would be offended at this!" example is utterly pointless since he has already been cast and is already getting his own movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadnox

I thought for a sec there was a legit Silvermane figure before I realized that was just the Silvermane head on an Ultron body.

[SymbiSpidey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

Is that our fault? No. That's on the comic companies to make them stick. If they don't have the writing to actually make the characters more than a marketing gimmick then that is their fault.

It doesn't have anything to do with the writing. Unfortunately, comic books in general just aren't as popular as they once were.

[VonPooten]

Wow this thread has turned into one hellova race-changing argument.

@TBM, You just raised a fascinating point which I had hitherto overlooked... Why on earth have they cast Tilda Swinton as The Ancient One when they could have cast a high-profile Chinese actor in the role to increase interest? (I know he's Tibetan, which causes a problem as you said, but for the sake of the countries' animosities, let's stick with a Chinese casting )

Regarding Danny Rand, I agree that Brubaker and Fraction did a very good job with depicting him as an outsider who had to earn the respect to train in K'un-Lun, but the problem arises in the form of the Doctor Strange movie, which comes out at the same time (back end of '16), and deals with this exact issue. If you've seen the 2009 animated movie (which is similar to how I believe the live-action film will play out), Strange has to work incredibly hard to earn his position and prove himself as a white outsider, and that would massively overshadow Rand's own story should it be translated panel-for-panel.
I thoroughly agree though, bring on Shang-Chi! The poor dude never gets sustained interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redfox

Regarding Scarlet Witch's Civil War costume, I don't see a single costume reflection, but more of a hodgepodge of her Marvel Now, All-New All-Different, and X-men: Evolution costumes. The color and style remind me of the Marvel Now costume. The bodice and black leggings scream the All-New All-Different costume. While the overcoat, necklaces, finger-less gloves, and lack of tiara bring back memories of the X-men: Evolution costume.

I must say that I secretly love Wanda in X-Men: Evolution, and was very happy that they went with a similar "street" look with AoU. She suits that rough-around-the-edges appearance, which then evolves into the elegance we now see in Civil War. It still keeps that edge, like you say, but it's a lovely smorgasbord. Come on, figure of her!

Although, does anyone agree with me that the ML movie figures are becoming moot at this point, what with the calibre of the very same characters being released by S.H. Figuarts? Hasbro are doing an okay job, but I'd gladly shell out more money for an S.H. Scarlet Witch than an ML one, it has to be said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

So johnny storm since his creation in 1961 has been an Caucasian American male with blonde hair and blue eyes, Jimmy Olsen since his creation from 1941 has been white with red hair and freckles. so how does this not look or seem wrong to you ?

Honestly I would say making Scarlet Witch a freak science/cosmic experiment with telepathy and Star Lord a "bro" jackass is FAR more damaging than changing a character's race. Heimdall and Nick Fury are still those characters, but Scarlet Witch has fundamentally changed due to her origins and powerset. Thank god Joss managed to keep her morally grey introduction at the heart of her character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redfox

I love how conflicted Black Widow appears in many of the promos. She appears to be the only character to fully recognize the enormity of the situation. I hope the Russo Bros. will handle her character with respect once again. She was fantastic in Wintersoldier, not so much in Age of Ultron.

[Spyne98]

So thinking about NY Toy Fair, what is everyone hoping for? New costumes or classic costumes? I want some updated things (Falcon Cap, Female Thor, etc) but I would love if that rumored X-Men wave is all classic/90's costumes. How about everyone else?

[donmeca2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

No, my point right there is that Marvel does it all the time because it doesn't matter. You completely skipped over the points I listed of all the many many MANY changes to comic book canon Marvel makes in its movies. Do you know why Marvel does so? Because it doesn't matter. They aren't in the business of making straight off the page, panel for panel adaptations of their comics.



Because I really don't care, nor do most people. That's what you seem to be missing. To the vast majority of people watching, it doesn't matter, and clearly Marvel and DC realize it doesn't matter or they wouldn't keep doing it.



A white Black Panther wouldn't make sense because of a very specific reason. He's the king of an isolationist African country with no contact with the outside world.

The people you keep mentioning like Iron Fist and such? Their race isn't relevant to the character in the slightest. The important part of Iron Fist's backstory is that he's not from K'un-L'un and comes from a rich family. The important part of Jimmy Olsen's story is is that he's a photographer and journalist and Superman's pal.

Seems like your making it a double standard to me.... black panther MUST be black ??? So if it doesn't matter to marvel maybe they could cast a gustamalan actor then ?? while marvel doesn't care supposedly as you said, they do care when they're movies flop in the box office.

I said it once before i'll say it again and i'll use your words as well.. "race swapping " a character for the sake of being diverse and trying to appeal to a crowd that may or may not be there is just a poor decision as a director or whomever that is producing that movie or tv show.

When they do things half ass or try to take a short cut, that will lead to whatever show or movie flopping big time.

[VonPooten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyne98

So thinking about NY Toy Fair, what is everyone hoping for? New costumes or classic costumes? I want some updated things (Falcon Cap, Female Thor, etc) but I would love if that rumored X-Men wave is all classic/90's costumes. How about everyone else?

I'm definitely in the minority in that I'd prefer 80% modern X-Men costumes. If the world was perfect, we'd receive three waves: one classic (FA Storm, Sunfire, Sauron, etc), one Jim Lee wave (basically all redos of past ToyBiz releases), and one modern (all Marvel Now/recent characters). That's the pipe dream!

In reality, who knows? Hasbro has an odd as heck track record with wave assortments (who could have predicted Cottonmouth and Red Guardian?), so there is no way to foresee anything.

As long as they use this Avengers streak to their advantage and release Monica Rambeau, Shang-Chi, Blue Marvel, America Chavez, a new Black Knight, Justice, Firestar, Jocasta and a new Hercules, I'm set.

Edit: A new Wonder Man, a new She Hulk, a new Moon Knight, Echo, Colleen Wing, an accessible Luke Cage, a new Falcon, comic Black Widow, Quake, updated comic War Machine, Sersi, a new Quicksilver, Songbird, Swordsman, Wiccan, Hulkling, Kate Bishop, Ms Marvel, Jessica Jones, Squirrel Girl, Clea, Moondragon, Starfox, Lionheart, Manifold, a new Scott Lang.... The list goes on and on. For releasing a lot of Avengers-esque waves, they're not covering much ground, are they?

[Boy Blunder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyne98

So thinking about NY Toy Fair, what is everyone hoping for? New costumes or classic costumes? I want some updated things (Falcon Cap, Female Thor, etc) but I would love if that rumored X-Men wave is all classic/90's costumes. How about everyone else?

I would love to see more NOW!/ANADM characters/designs in the 6" line. Bring on the new stuff! Gimme a Sam Cap, a Jane Thor, a Kamala, and an America Chavez! And a Laura Wolvie, just to upset some people

[Captain Nash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyne98

So thinking about NY Toy Fair, what is everyone hoping for? New costumes or classic costumes? I want some updated things (Falcon Cap, Female Thor, etc) but I would love if that rumored X-Men wave is all classic/90's costumes. How about everyone else?

only a few days away! I'm hoping that we see some Dr. Strange stuff. It's almost a given we will see some Captain America Civil War part 2 stuff and been confirmed we'll see the X-Men stuff. Maybe even very early rough prototypes/slides for Thor and GOTG2 stuff.

With the X-Men wave I am expecting the reveals to be the rumored list, but I'll remain firm that maybe just maybe one or two of those are off and we'll get a never done before figure or two. My preference on who is obvious of course, but even if it's not her, anything new would be appreciated. However I'm not hopeful on that.

[donmeca2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

Um, because he is white. There doesn't need to be a reason. He was created white so he needs to be white. That's like turning Peter Parker black. No, just no.

People are bitching up a storm about a white man being cast to play Michael Jackson. However, those very same people have no problem with a black man playing a white super hero. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I am against all race changes because there are plenty of characters to choose from if you want a character from another race. How about taking that D lister Battlestar and turning him into a B lister by exposing him to the world and making everyone love him through solid writing?

Imagine that. A world where good writing turns the most unknown into a fan favorite. Making people like a character they didn't even know they wanted to like. You think someone just proved it can work when they made this little movie about a group of unknowns that featured a talking tree and a raccoon with a machine gun.



I'm so glad to see Widow back in her proper costume and not that ugly Tron one.

Took the words 100% out of my mouth !!!
no one on here that is arguing on here can give any of us an honest answer why it's ok to change to change an iconic white character to black,gay or female... but there is no way in hell they can change black panther to someone who looks like micheal moore. once again there goes that double standard thingy popping up.


on to toyfair wish list.

I would like to see a new hulk wave, obviously a spidey wave is coming yet again, i need very badly a modern made symbiote spidey figure and WILL NOT pay ebay scalper prices for the old one..... and as well as everyone else has said an X wave with jim lee era outfits would be good too !!

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

Seems like your making it a double standard to me.... black panther MUST be black ???

They already cast a black guy as Black Panther, LOL. Why do people keep using that as an example.

And it's already been answered. The studios are more okay with making white people into minorities than the vice versa because there's never been any shortage of roles for white actors in Hollywood, and certainly not a lack of white superheroes onscreen.

Quote:

I said it once before i'll say it again and i'll use your words as well.. "race swapping " a character for the sake of being diverse and trying to appeal to a crowd that may or may not be there is just a poor decision as a director or whomever that is producing that movie or tv show.

When they do things half ass or try to take a short cut, that will lead to whatever show or movie flopping big time.

Really?

Because the Flash made the female lead and her father, both of whom are white in the comics, black. The show has been a huge hit for the CW and is already on its second season.

Elementary made Watson from the Sherlock Holmes novels into an Asian woman. It proved to be a big hit for CBS and is on its fourth season.

Daredevil has been one of the most critically acclaimed entries in the whole MCU, and it made Ben Urich black and cast an Asian woman as Elektra.

The Battlestar Galactica reboot is one of the most critically acclaimed sci-fi shows of all time, and it made Boomer Asian and Starbuck into a woman.

Smallville, despite being crappy, made Martian Manhunter and Pete Ross black and cast an Asian woman as Lana Lang, the female lead. It made it to ten seasons.

True Blood was a massive success for HBO and made one of the major characters, Tara, black.

Arrow is on its fourth season and has a Maori actor from New Zealand playing Deathstroke, who is supposed to be a white American.

The Shawshank Redemption was one of the most critically acclaimed movies of the 90's and won multiple Oscar nominations, and it had Morgan Freeman playing a main character who was a redheaded Irishman in the novel.

And the response to the first Suicide Squad trailer has been very positive despite a black man playing Deadshot.

How many MCU movies have we had now with Sam Jackson as Nick Fury?

But wait...how can that be? It's almost like most of the people watching it really don't care about that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyne98

So thinking about NY Toy Fair, what is everyone hoping for? New costumes or classic costumes? I want some updated things (Falcon Cap, Female Thor, etc) but I would love if that rumored X-Men wave is all classic/90's costumes. How about everyone else?

I wanna see the new Legends Scarlet Witch that was allegedly shown at Nuremberg.

[donmeca2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

They already cast a black guy as Black Panther, LOL. Why do people keep using that as an example.

And it's already been answered. The studios are more okay with making white people into minorities than the vice versa because there's never been any shortage of roles for white actors in Hollywood, and certainly not a lack of white superheroes onscreen.


Really?

Because the Flash made the female lead and her father, both of whom are white in the comics, black. The show has been a huge hit for the CW and is already on its second season.

Elementary made Watson from the Sherlock Holmes novels into an Asian woman. It proved to be a big hit for CBS and is on its fourth season.

Daredevil has been one of the most critically acclaimed entries in the whole MCU, and it made Ben Urich black and cast an Asian woman as Elektra.

The Battlestar Galactica reboot is one of the most critically acclaimed sci-fi shows of all time, and it made Boomer Asian and Starbuck into a woman.

Smallville, despite being crappy, made Pete Ross black and cast an Asian woman as Lana Lang, the female lead. It made it to ten seasons.

True Blood was a massive success for HBO and made one of the major characters, Tara, black.

Arrow is on its fourth season and has a Maori actor from New Zealand playing Deathstroke, who is supposed to be a white American.

The Shawshank Redemption was one of the most critically acclaimed movies of the 90's and won multiple Oscar nominations, and it had Morgan Freeman playing a main character who was a redheaded Irishman in the novel.

And the response to the first Suicide Squad trailer has been very positive despite a black man playing Deadshot.

How many MCU movies have we had now with Sam Jackson as Nick Fury?

But wait...how can that be? It's almost like most of the people watching it really don't care about that!



I wanna see the new Legends Scarlet Witch that was allegedly shown at Nuremberg.

You still haven't given a valid reason to change a person's race in a movie.... Why can't drew carey play Black Panther???? why is that a NO NO but johnny storm, jimmy olsen, deadshot and so fourth can be ?? you have no answer simply as that.... let's stop this topic before a mod jumps in an starts banning people.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

You still haven't given a valid reason to change a person's race in a movie.... Why can't drew carey play Black Panther???? why is that a NO NO but johnny storm, jimmy olsen, deadshot and so fourth can be ?? you have no answer simply as that.... let's stop this topic before a mod jumps in an starts banning people.

Because Drew Carey is too old and too out of shape and T'challa's race is tied directly to his character whereas Johnny Storm, Jimmy Olsen, and Deadshot's characters have nothing to do with them being white. Because adapting a character for the screen with colorblind casting increases the representation of marginalized groups, while whitewashing further marginalizes them.

And you're still ignoring the fact that there is, in fact, a white Black Panther in canon. So "Why can't Black Panther be white?" is a shitty rebuttal when it's been done over a decade ago and no one made a fuss.

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

why is that a NO NO but johnny storm, jimmy olsen, deadshot and so fourth can be ?? you have no answer simply as that.... let's stop this topic before a mod jumps in an starts banning people.

I literally have several times now. You just aren't paying attention. We live in a society where racial representation and diversity in film is a huge hot button topic, so yes, there is going to be a belief that making an existing minority character into a white guy is problematic while the opposite is not.

Perhaps if superhero films hadn't been so predominately white and male that wouldn't be the way things are, but that's the way it is. That is why nobody has a problem casting minorities to play Nick Fury or Jimmy or Aquaman.

That's the way it is. Note this is not just me, this it he people in charge. There's a reason they got Chadwick Boseman to play Black Panther but didn't mind casting Idris Elba or Will Smith or Samuel L. Jackson. One is gonna make them look good (or just get them the best actor for the part), the other is gonna make them look like they're contributing to a larger problem.

Again, that should be pretty obvious.

[Universe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

They already cast a black guy as Black Panther, LOL. Why do people keep using that as an example.

And it's already been answered. The studios are more okay with making white people into minorities than the vice versa because there's never been any shortage of roles for white actors in Hollywood, and certainly not a lack of white superheroes onscreen.

Can you expect anything else when they teach white-shaming in all our universities by liberal professors? That's the climate of Hollywood; multiculturalism. The downfall of Europe and soon to be the downfall of the West.

<attempts to close the can of worms>