[donmeca2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by En Sabah Nerd

*Nerd voice* auggh well technically the name had already been taken by Mar-Vell. She just inherited it from him now.

Seriously though, as a name itself "Captain Marvel" makes more sense belonging to Marvel. I would be confused if Marvel made a character called Mister DC. To me Angela is a Spawn character and I'm not sure why Marvel bothered saying "hey look it's Angela, y'know from Spawn" if they were then going to make it a completely new character anyway who just looks like the Spawn character. I was okay with her being brought over at first but the moment they said she's actually Thor's long lost sister I was completely pulled out.

correct me if im wrong. back when she was a spawn character she was an angel. now here at marvel she's a asgardian goddess ? godess of what ?

[305Batman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenm2474

Marvel Legends For Sale:
Loose:
All 3 together $50.00 Shipped
Hulkbuster Wave
Blizzard $20.00 Shipped
Iron Man $20.00 Shipped
Warmachine $20.00 Shipped

Toybiz Hulkbuster $50.00 Shipped

Why is 1970's Burt Reynolds inside the Hulkbuster?

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Kain

I'll accept Angela as a Marvel character when I accept Miss Marvel stealing the name of Captain Marvel from the DC character, which means never.

That doesn't surprise me, you were pretty dogmatic in your first comment. As I said, you can like whomever you want...but towing some rigid line that she belongs only within the Image universe ignores how often this sort of thing has taken place in the history of comics. I'm a big Dreadstar fan, it was one of my first books, as a kid in the eighties. I loved it so much, that I followed the book from Marvel (Epic), to First, and then to Malibu. Hell, I just recently grabbed a TPB omnibus published by Dyanmite, just to reminisce. These properties change hands often. How many publishers have Star Wars, Transformers, and Gi-Joe comics had over the years?

I'm not really sure what point you're making with Ms. Marvel stealing Shazam's name. She didn't steal anything. FYI: neither 'she' nor 'he' are real people lol Jokes aside, this matter was handled in court years ago with Marvel's Captain Marvel (say that five times fast!). I don't remember the details, I was a kid who couldn't care any less about the matter (still the same as an adult), but I seem to remember there was a settlement and some sort of time stipulation. If you're that invested in this contentious bit of name ownership history, I suppose you could look up the federal/civil court briefs...

What I do know is that Shazam was formerly a property owned by some other comic company (not D.C.). D.C., upset at the similarities between Shazam and Superman, sued said company to the point of preventing them from continuing to publish any more books featuring the character. In the early seventies, after Marvel had trademarked Captain Marvel, D.C. acquired 'partial' rights to use Shazam. At which time, they brought him into the D.C. Universe, eventually securing full ownership of the character in the early nineties. Considering that Marvel had trademarked Captain Marvel before D.C. had secured even partial rights, I really don't see the problem with using the name back then or now...

Again, if you don't like Angela as a character, then that's one thing and understandable. But Angela's just as much of a "Marvel Character" as Shazam is a "D.C. Hero." Hey, if Neil Gaiman returns to D.C. to do some more Sandman stuff, maybe he'll bring Angela with him...then you, Neil, and Todd can hug it out and let bygones be bygones..joking of course!

[En Sabah Nerd]

@TheBlueMarvel: Great shots with Kraven, very fun idea there.

I was happy with the Angela transfer until they added stuff to her origin. Retcons shouldn't be applied to such a fresh addition, they should have just left it at Angela being a demon hunter from another world. I might get the toy though as a fan of the character, back when she was cool.

[TheBlueMarvel]

@En Sabah Nerd

Hey thanks, man. I just thought I'd throw something fun up...nothing that would take too long...

I hear you on the retcon crap. I was hoping so badly that the Sentry would end up being a Beyonder, rather than having to accept that he'd always been there with the stalwarts of the Marvel Universe using his 'super-tech' to make everyone forget (WTF?). Even the Blue Marvel retcon was hard to swallow, but obviously, I still like the character.

Angela was not my first choice, but I like god-characters and powerhouses. Once Quasar had been cleared from competition, I was all in on Angela. We are going to get Sif, Executioner, and Enchantress with the next Thor movie...I'd have only been interested in a Razor version of Darkhawk, or Talon...symbiote Spidey will happen (as if he needs a fan poll!?!?)...and Mysterio just feels like a waste of space...the old one is fine. At least Angela's a new character...

[jedirulz123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by En Sabah Nerd

I might get the toy though as a fan of the character, back when she was cool.

She's in charge of Hel, how is that not cool?

[En Sabah Nerd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedirulz123

She's in charge of Hel, how is that not cool?

The "back when she was cool" line was intended as a joke suggesting I am a purist who only likes the old stuff. Ruling Hel is definitely cool on its own.

[Pravus Prime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

What I do know is that Shazam was formerly a property owned by some other comic company (not D.C.). D.C., upset at the similarities between Shazam and Superman, sued said company to the point of preventing them from continuing to publish any more books featuring the character.

Not quite.

Whiz comics published Captain Marvel.
National Comics (Later DC)
Timely Comics (Later Marvel) are the three companies involved here.

When Captain Marvel starting outselling Superman on a regular basis, National sued them, claiming that Captain Marvel was a rip-off of Superman. They lost the case. They then started amping up Superman and stealing elements from Captain Marvel (the first hero on moving picture!). Superman could fly now, Supergirl appeared, Superboy got his own title, and Lex Luthor became a bald scientist who was a recurring villain, all to match Caps magic powers, Mary Marvels major role in the Marvel family, Captain Marvel Juniors popularity, and because Dr. Sivanna was a very popular villain.

National tried again to sue Whiz, but again, lost the case in days. However, the judge did point out that while the characters were not rip-offs, the formatting of some issues could be taken as a new case.

By the 1950's, there was a major shift in comics, prior to then, Superheroes were a genre within comics, not the majority. True Crime/Intrigue/Spy, Historical, and War comics were all other major genres at the time as well, each selling as well or even better up until that point. Post-war however, Superheroes were the only selling comics as the industry went into a rather hefty decline. This shift in sales caused many small time comic companies (or subdivisions) to fold, as they didn't have any popular superheroes to keep them afloat in this new era. Whiz was losing money on all their titles except Captain Marvel. When the next lawsuit arrived about the formatting of some of their issues, they realized that they were screwed. In the end, Whiz went out of business in 1953.

National would reorganize from the shift as well, dumping many of their titles and reforming as DC, publishing virtually only Superhero comics and getting bigger as a result of flexing with the times.

Timely would re-organize as well, into Marvel a few years later, doing virtually the same thing. In 1968 they managed to secure the copyright to Captain Marvel (Which hadn't been used in 15 years and thus was free to be taken). In 1972 DC would gain a license to use Whiz characters, then outright bought them in 1994, but because of Marvel having Captain Marvel, was forced to use Shazam!.

National never won a single case despite trying several times arguing that Captain Marvel was a Superman rip-off, what they managed to do was gain a settlement on the similarities in formatting and that was enough to drive the final nail into Whiz comics financial woes to put them out of business at the time. The only other comic they published (and only briefly) was a run on Dennis the Menace.

As for Angela, I still don't understand that. Mostly because I don't get why Marvel even wanted Angela unless it was part of some bigger negotiation "package".

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Fawcett. Not Whiz.

And Marvel wanted Angela because it was a good stunt and a Take That at Toddy. The resultant sales supported it. Neil probably gave her away cheap too.

[hitman2099]

When is the Hulkbuster Wave hitting retail? I keep checking and I never see even a hint that the wave has hit any store.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pravus Prime

Not quite.

Whiz comics published Captain Marvel.
National Comics (Later DC)
Timely Comics (Later Marvel) are the three companies involved here.

When Captain Marvel starting outselling Superman on a regular basis, National sued them, claiming that Captain Marvel was a rip-off of Superman. They lost the case. They then started amping up Superman and stealing elements from Captain Marvel (the first hero on moving picture!). Superman could fly now, Supergirl appeared, Superboy got his own title, and Lex Luthor became a bald scientist who was a recurring villain, all to match Caps magic powers, Mary Marvels major role in the Marvel family, Captain Marvel Juniors popularity, and because Dr. Sivanna was a very popular villain.

National tried again to sue Whiz, but again, lost the case in days. However, the judge did point out that while the characters were not rip-offs, the formatting of some issues could be taken as a new case.

By the 1950's, there was a major shift in comics, prior to then, Superheroes were a genre within comics, not the majority. True Crime/Intrigue/Spy, Historical, and War comics were all other major genres at the time as well, each selling as well or even better up until that point. Post-war however, Superheroes were the only selling comics as the industry went into a rather hefty decline. This shift in sales caused many small time comic companies (or subdivisions) to fold, as they didn't have any popular superheroes to keep them afloat in this new era. Whiz was losing money on all their titles except Captain Marvel. When the next lawsuit arrived about the formatting of some of their issues, they realized that they were screwed. In the end, Whiz went out of business in 1953.

National would reorganize from the shift as well, dumping many of their titles and reforming as DC, publishing virtually only Superhero comics and getting bigger as a result of flexing with the times.

Timely would re-organize as well, into Marvel a few years later, doing virtually the same thing. In 1968 they managed to secure the copyright to Captain Marvel (Which hadn't been used in 15 years and thus was free to be taken). In 1972 DC would gain a license to use Whiz characters, then outright bought them in 1994, but because of Marvel having Captain Marvel, was forced to use Shazam!.

National never won a single case despite trying several times arguing that Captain Marvel was a Superman rip-off, what they managed to do was gain a settlement on the similarities in formatting and that was enough to drive the final nail into Whiz comics financial woes to put them out of business at the time. The only other comic they published (and only briefly) was a run on Dennis the Menace.

As for Angela, I still don't understand that. Mostly because I don't get why Marvel even wanted Angela unless it was part of some bigger negotiation "package".

Thanks for the nuanced information, but while the fine details were a bit of a mystery to me (I applaud your erudite coverage of the backdrop), I knew the substance of the matter you've related. However, I don't see how that changes anything I wrote. Whether the lawsuit(s) by National (the forerunner of D.C.) was(were) part of, or the fulcrum of Whiz's (published by Fawcett) decision to cease production of Shazam (I use that name because I'm playfully provocative [what can I say, I'm a dick that way lol] – I normally call him Captain Marvel as he should be referred to...but in this context, respect is deferred), matters not one whit. The suit, be it in part or in full, halted Shazam comics. A legal suit may fail to meet muster in a court of law, but if the rigor of defense cripples said target (as you indicated), then ultimately it's viewed as a successful gambit by its initiators. Additionally, my larger point, is that Shazam was not a fully owned property or character of D.C. until the nineties (in '72, D.C. licensed Shazammy – in part, I believe, to stymie Marvel's juggernaut). Shazam was an acquired hero, not unlike Angela. If Billy is “D.C.,” then Angela is “Marvel.”

Look, I ain't trying to make this into your typical infantilized-internet-meme convo where we throw jabs, crosses, and uppercuts...if you don't like Angela as a character, bully for you. However, taking some hardline about the character because she's from another pantheon, in my estimation, is petty and disingenuous. There's a long history of this sort of thing within comics. Don't poo-poo my elation/excitement (or anyone else for that matter) over getting an Angela fig. Shrug your shoulders, do you, and keep it moving...

As an olive branch in this dialogue: I actually agree that Gaiman's Angela was about something else. I'm not an insider of any sort, but I think it may have been more about Gaiman himself. Marvel wanted him badly (I believe), possibly to stick it to D.C. Acquiring one of D.C.'s most prolific writers would make for quite the feather in the cap...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Fawcett. Not Whiz.

And Marvel wanted Angela because it was a good stunt and a Take That at Toddy. The resultant sales supported it. Neil probably gave her away cheap too.

This is just as valid a reason for Angela, as well...

[Pravus Prime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueMarvel

Look, I ain't trying to make this into your typical infantilized-internet-meme convo where we throw jabs, crosses, and uppercuts...if you don't like Angela as a character, bully for you. However, taking some hardline about the character because she's from another pantheon, in my estimation, is petty and disingenuous. There's a long history of this sort of thing within comics. Don't poo-poo my elation/excitement (or anyone else for that matter) over getting an Angela fig. Shrug your shoulders, do you, and keep it moving...

As an olive branch in this dialogue: I actually agree that Gaiman's Angela was about something else. I'm not an insider of any sort, but I think it may have been more about Gaiman himself. Marvel wanted him badly (I believe), possibly to stick it to D.C. Acquiring one of D.C.'s most prolific writers would make for quite the feather in the cap...



This is just as valid a reason for Angela, as well...

Ummm, I never said anything about Angela at all except for that one sentence in this thread, and that was about why Marvel wanted her.

I think you're either very sensitive about this subject or confused me with someone else.

[VonPooten]

Seems like there's been an Angela debacle since yesterday!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedirulz123

She's in charge of Hel, how is that not cool?

My opinion is largely this. Yeah, she used to be a Spawn character and, yeah, the idea of her being Odin's long lost daughter isn't ideal, but Gillen and Bennett have crafted Angela into an interesting character. She's a (much needed) female Marvel heavy-hitter, a cosmic mercenary with a fascinating set of morals, and she is now the ruler of Hel. Plus, the art is breathtaking (good old fashioned superhero fun from Jimenez, and ethereal fantasy fable from Hans).

So, I'm very glad that Angela won the poll (although sad for Darkhawk fans). Let's just hope that all her armour isn't painted instead of sculpted detail!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pravus Prime

Ummm, I never said anything about Angela at all except for that one sentence in this thread, and that was about why Marvel wanted her.

I think you're either very sensitive about this subject or confused me with someone else.

Don't worry mate, I don't think he meant that explicitly at yourself. More aimed at the comic fans who refuse to acknowledge that she even exists within the Marvel Universe now.

[ChuckSass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

correct me if im wrong. back when she was a spawn character she was an angel. now here at marvel she's a asgardian goddess ? godess of what ?

no heres the deal,

SPOILERS AHEAD!

There were not 9 realms originally, there were 10. Angela was Odin's baby, and she was taken from the angels that live in that 10th realm (which would be like Heaven, and very similar to the concepts created by Neil Gaiman and Todd Macfarlane).
After Age of Ultron, Angela was plopped into space because of all the crazy timestream mess up wolverine created. Angela hung out with the Guardians until the Original Sin event when Fury told Thor he had a sister and Angela found a way home to the 10th Realm, only to find out she was Odin's kid and asguardian and not actually an Angel.


Honestly I think it was smart to tie her to one of Marvel's biggest characters and both include and retcon the Spawn stuff. Plus her solo title was one of the best solo books. And to those who don't accept Angela as a Marvel character, thats possibly one of the stupidest things, following voting for a symbiotic spider man figure. By now, Angela has had more appearances in Marvel's print than she did at Image/Spawn, She's a Marvel Character and Darkhawk is still lame 24 years later.

[donmeca2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckSass

no heres the deal,

SPOILERS AHEAD!

There were not 9 realms originally, there were 10. Angela was Odin's baby, and she was taken from the angels that live in that 10th realm (which would be like Heaven, and very similar to the concepts created by Neil Gaiman and Todd Macfarlane).
After Age of Ultron, Angela was plopped into space because of all the crazy timestream mess up wolverine created. Angela hung out with the Guardians until the Original Sin event when Fury told Thor he had a sister and Angela found a way home to the 10th Realm, only to find out she was Odin's kid and asguardian and not actually an Angel.


Honestly I think it was smart to tie her to one of Marvel's biggest characters and both include and retcon the Spawn stuff. Plus her solo title was one of the best solo books.

I bought her first marvel issue, while it wasn't bad it didn't get me wowed enough to continue buying it.

[ChuckSass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

I bought her first marvel issue, while it wasn't bad it didn't get me wowed enough to continue buying it.

well I'm sorry you felt that way because it had solid writing and even better art.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pravus Prime

Ummm, I never said anything about Angela at all except for that one sentence in this thread, and that was about why Marvel wanted her.

I think you're either very sensitive about this subject or confused me with someone else.

As VonPooten suggested, it was more of a generalized statement regarding the fallout after Angela’s ‘fan poll’ victory. I tend to stay “on message” within discussions and write with a verbal flourish (makes things more entertaining to me!) that can easily be misinterpreted…shit happens, when it’s 2:30am and you’re typing on a "comment thread." I meant no offense and I'm usually laughing while I'm keyboarding (I crack 'me' up!)...and...who you calling sensitive, Jack?!?!

[warmachine6]

call me impatient but i was wondering when is the next or when is the next Comic con event i feel Hasbro could have raveled more this year

[donmeca2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckSass

well I'm sorry you felt that way because it had solid writing and even better art.

like i said it wasn't bad but not good enough for me to fork over another $3.99 an issue. i already have a TON of titles i regularly read.

[Dr Kain]

So Thundra and Blizzard look pretty cool from the pictures I have seen, but I just don't need to have them.

[VonPooten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

like i said it wasn't bad but not good enough for me to fork over another $3.99 an issue. i already have a TON of titles i regularly read.

I hear you, and with this "All-New All-Different" Marvel there are 60-odd new series launching. How do they expect readers to support every character/series they enjoy if they launch dozens of comics in one month?!

On an unrelated, ML-related note: out of all the X-Men, who would you pair Spider-Man against? I'm preparing a photo shoot, and I have no idea who he'd be suited with. Wolverine, perhaps?

[Captain Nash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonPooten

I hear you, and with this "All-New All-Different" Marvel there are 60-odd new series launching. How do they expect readers to support every character/series they enjoy if they launch dozens of comics in one month?!

On an unrelated, ML-related note: out of all the X-Men, who would you pair Spider-Man against? I'm preparing a photo shoot, and I have no idea who he'd be suited with. Wolverine, perhaps?

In the first question, I'm not sure. But my several decades long reading hobby is over as of Secret Wars, with the exception of a couple of tie ins I'm viewing as just being limited series and the current Uncanny X-Men run, that has one more issue to go, which is really just out of nostalgia to get to another hundred issue mark.

For your second question, I'd say either Domino or Gambit. Granted both sculpts are out of date but they are out there. Or maybe Nightcrawler, also with his out of date sculpt. As far as up to date scuplts I'd say Deadpool.

[TheBlueMarvel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonPooten

I hear you, and with this "All-New All-Different" Marvel there are 60-odd new series launching. How do they expect readers to support every character/series they enjoy if they launch dozens of comics in one month?!

On an unrelated, ML-related note: out of all the X-Men, who would you pair Spider-Man against? I'm preparing a photo shoot, and I have no idea who he'd be suited with. Wolverine, perhaps?

Well, he has fought Wolvie on a few occasions. I think Gambit would also make for an interesting match up. They both have a high degree of cunning as far as fighting-styles are concerned...Beast is as strong (in some mutations, he might even be stronger), nearly as agile and fast as Petey...then there's Nightcrawler, but I don't know what X-men line-up you have in mind...

[ChuckSass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonPooten

I hear you, and with this "All-New All-Different" Marvel there are 60-odd new series launching. How do they expect readers to support every character/series they enjoy if they launch dozens of comics in one month?!

On an unrelated, ML-related note: out of all the X-Men, who would you pair Spider-Man against? I'm preparing a photo shoot, and I have no idea who he'd be suited with. Wolverine, perhaps?

Storm, only because she never got her revenge from when spidey punched her face.


that said, I agree with you both about buying books. I think the all new all different is the best time for me to jump off and start picking up trades. Although that Gamora book will be the only one I'll supporting monthly.

[En Sabah Nerd]

ARRRGGGHHHH!!! ChuckSass insulted one of my favorite characters! We are now enemies!