[Boy Blunder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitelife

Because danny rand is long established as a white male. To counter point why not have a NEW character made to be an asian iron fist? New character as ironfist instead of lazily doin the whole race change thing. To your logic we should have an illegitamte white son for black panther, since they did it for nick fury. YEESH!

Except that you still didn't refute my statement. How is it important to Danny Rand's character that he be white? Aside from being depicted as such in previous media? How does that play into his personality, his motivations, his origin, or just his character?

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be white, I'm saying that he's a character that doesn't have any kind of racial/ethnic identity tied to the core of his character. I'm looking at his origin right this moment, and honestly, if I didn't already know he was white, I wouldn't have any reason to assume that he was based on his background and character.

[Harbinger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boy Blunder

Except that you still didn't refute my statement. How is it important to Danny Rand's character that he be white? Aside from being depicted as such in previous media? How does that play into his personality, his motivations, his origin, or just his character?

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be white, I'm saying that he's a character that doesn't have any kind of racial/ethnic identity tied to the core of his character. I'm looking at his origin right this moment, and honestly, if I didn't already know he was white, I wouldn't have any reason to assume that he was based on his background and character.

Mostly because its bloody lazy way for writers to put forth little effort which is a recurring trend i personally dont like. I would rather see a whole new character made than a creation just riding the coattails of a name. New characters expand the brand without changing established character history. Example, while i found calling him ghost rider looney since he drove a car, the new ghostrider character was a whole new character. It wasnt oh lets take johnny blaze and make him a latino dude whose a mechanic street racer it was lets make a whole new guy. A great example no....but even if hed rode a harley he woulda been new, and made more sense to use rider since he woulda rode something and not drove.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitelife

Mostly because its bloody lazy way for writers to put forth little effort which is a recurring trend i personally dont like. I would rather see a whole new character made than a creation just riding the coattails of a name. New characters expand the brand without changing established character history. Example, while i found calling him ghost rider looney since he drove a car, the new ghostrider character was a whole new character. It wasnt oh lets take johnny blaze and make him a latino dude whose a mechanic street racer it was lets make a whole new guy. A great example no....but even if hed rode a harley he woulda been new, and made more sense to use rider since he woulda rode something and not drove.

But this isn't changing established character history, because the MCU Danny Rand has no history established. This isn't turning the established Danny Rand Asian any more than if a Danny in a What If? was Asian or they'd decided Ultimate Iron Fist should be Asian. Apples and oranges.

I'm also not convinced changing a character to adapt to what the creators feel suits the medium is lazier than "copy what the comic book did exactly." Follow the established playbook seems pretty lazy.

[VonPooten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

This one for sure. It looks exactly like Wanda's Marvel Now costume, has a long coat which simulates a cape, and has a cleaner design to the admittedly clunky AoU costume (which is probably why they changed it I'd guess).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 305Batman

Because there is no reason to change the race of a long established character,what if they made Superman Asian or Wonder Woman Mexican?

I agree to an extent, but this comparison is super flawed. Superman hasn't appropriated an entire culture as the core component of his character, but Iron Fist has. If he were created today, he would be Tibetan, not white, and since the MCU is a modern retelling of the comics, there's no reason why Danny Rand can't be Asian-American or actually Asian.

I don't mind whether he's white or not in the show, but Danny Rand is the epitome of a wasted opportunity. Instead of being a genuinely interesting Tibetan local who learns the secrets of K'un-Lun, he's yet another fabulously wealthy playboy New Yorker who yet again has dead parent issues.

I love the character, and have been reading his exploits for years, but objectively he is dancing to a tune that everyone's heard before. At least making him Tibetan would add something to the table and would fit with the culture of the comic's mythos.

[Boy Blunder]

^ Bless you, VonPooten

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonPooten

This one for sure. It looks exactly like Wanda's Marvel Now costume, has a long coat which simulates a cape, and has a cleaner design to the admittedly clunky AoU costume (which is probably why they changed it I'd guess).

Yeah. Looking at the AOU one now, it looks really busy. I think this one flows better.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 305Batman

Because there is no reason to change the race of a long established character,what if they made Superman Asian or Wonder Woman Mexican?

Asian Superman.


Mexican Wonder Woman.


You were saying?

[VonPooten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boy Blunder

^ Bless you, VonPooten

Yeah, sorry about the intervention. As a whole I'm not too bothered either way, but the more you consider it the less logical Danny Rand being white in the MCU seems. As long as the comics didn't try and reflect this by race-changing him in the 616, I don't see any problem with it!

On a very, very related note, this last week preceding Toy Fair is absolutely torturous. I'm waiting on baited breath for any kind of leak concerning the X-wave...

[Boy Blunder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Asian Superman.


Mexican Wonder Woman.


You were saying?

Smoked like a kipper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonPooten

Yeah, sorry about the intervention. As a whole I'm not too bothered either way, but the more you consider it the less logical Danny Rand being white in the MCU seems. As long as the comics didn't try and reflect this by race-changing him in the 616, I don't see any problem with it!

No worries, you were able to articulate a lot better than I was! And yeah, I have no problem with Danny as-is, and if they did change his race in 616, that would be some questionable decision-making, but the MCU is its own animal, and just by making him Asian/Asian-American, they'd instantly give the story a bit more credibility and depth. And it wouldn't be another example of a 'Mighty Whitey' character.

Quote:

On a very, very related note, this last week preceding Toy Fair is absolutely torture. I'm waiting on baited breath for any kind of leak concerning the X-wave...

Yes, yes please. This and maybe some information on the rumored Spider-Man and Dr. Strange waves? I want to see the rumored Miles, and I'm hoping and praying that the Dr. Strange wave shows up just to confirm a Nico figure.

[Jmacq1]

At this point I'm wondering if anyone on Tony's side besides Rhodey (and maybe Vision) is really on his side.

Black Widow is tight with Hawkeye and Cap, though it might be good storytelling to have her genuinely disagreeing with them. Though conversely...Hawkeye could be a double-agent on Cap's team.

Black Panther was on Cap's side in the comics and Chadwick Boseman has hinted that t'Challa's role in the film may not be as clear-cut as "being on any one side." Might be ballsy/cool if they show the Panther kinda messing over both sides in a way that's advantageous to him/Wakanda. Not in a villainous/hurtful way, but showing that he's a cunning manipulator who looks after his own nation's interests first and foremost.

I do think we'll definitely see some side-changing at some point in the movie, and that's not even getting into the long-rumored Spider-Man cameo/role (which I kind of suspect is going to be more towards the "cameo" side than "major supporting role.")

[Jmacq1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boy Blunder

No worries, you were able to articulate a lot better than I was! And yeah, I have no problem with Danny as-is, and if they did change his race in 616, that would be some questionable decision-making, but the MCU is its own animal, and just by making him Asian/Asian-American, they'd instantly give the story a bit more credibility and depth. And it wouldn't be another example of a 'Mighty Whitey' character.

The natural compromise would seem to be making Danny an Asian (or half-asian) of American birth/culture but East Asian descent. Personality can be pretty much the same, and you can have an "in the blood" reason that he's linked with K'un L'un.

Quote:

Yes, yes please. This and maybe some information on the rumored Spider-Man and Dr. Strange waves? I want to see the rumored Miles, and I'm hoping and praying that the Dr. Strange wave shows up just to confirm a Nico figure.

I know Marvelousnews.com had a rumored lineup for the X-Men wave. I believe it was Phoenix, Rogue, Kitty, Iceman, Havok, Cable, Wolverine (speculated either Old Man Logan or X-23 as Wolverine), and Deadpool (Obviously a couple of those would be swaps).

Were there rumored lists for another Spider-Man wave and the Dr. Strange wave? I kind of suspect that the already-revealed but unaccounted-for Namor figure will be in the Dr. STrange wave due to Defenders/Illuminati connections.

Of course...this would be the part where I remind folks that Toy Fair often is pretty light on Marvel reveals...which they often hold back until SDCC. I bet we don't see the full Dr. Strange wave, but do get a couple teases for it.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

Were there rumored lists for another Spider-Man wave and the Dr. Strange wave? I kind of suspect that the already-revealed but unaccounted-for Namor figure will be in the Dr. STrange wave due to Defenders/Illuminati connections.

Namor is accounted for. He's a Wal-Greens exclusive.

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Were there rumored lists for another Spider-Man wave and the Dr. Strange wave? I kind of suspect that the already-revealed but unaccounted-for Namor figure will be in the Dr. STrange wave due to Defenders/Illuminati connections.

The rumored Doctor Strange wave was:

Quote:

630509425327 Iron Fist
630509425334 Comics Doctor Strange
630509425341 Nico Minoru (Runaways)
630509425358 The Ancient One
630509425365 Brother Voodoo
630509425372 Karl Mordo (Baron Mordo)
630509425389 Movie Doctor Strange
630509438761 Movie Doctor Strange (Astral Form)

[Boy Blunder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

I know Marvelousnews.com had a rumored lineup for the X-Men wave. I believe it was Phoenix, Rogue, Kitty, Iceman, Havok, Cable, Wolverine (speculated either Old Man Logan or X-23 as Wolverine), and Deadpool (Obviously a couple of those would be swaps).

Were there rumored lists for another Spider-Man wave and the Dr. Strange wave? I kind of suspect that the already-revealed but unaccounted-for Namor figure will be in the Dr. STrange wave due to Defenders/Illuminati connections.

Of course...this would be the part where I remind folks that Toy Fair often is pretty light on Marvel reveals...which they often hold back until SDCC. I bet we don't see the full Dr. Strange wave, but do get a couple teases for it.

Namor's been leaked to be the next Walgreens exclusive, assumed to be linked to the current Captain America wave.

The rumored Spider-Man wave was found via UPC-mining (I forget the exact source), but is said to have the following figures: Spider-Man (Miles Morales), Peter Parker (unknown what suit or if it's a civilian version), Silk, Spider-Girl (Ashley Barton, dubiously nicknamed 'Spider-Bitch'), Electro (comics version, hopefully the classic lightning-masked version), and Shocker.

The rumored Dr. Strange wave is another that I don't know the source for, but is supposed to include: Dr. Strange (classic), Dr. Strange (MCU), Baron Mordo, Brother Voodoo (assumed to be different from the SDCC '15 one somehow), the Ancient One, Nico Minoru (from Runaways/A-Force), Iron Fist (hopefully the classic green-and-yellow outfit), and Astral Dr. Strange (MCU).

[VonPooten]

To be honest, even if there are no surprises, I just can't wait to see Cable, Havok, Kitty, Miles, Silk, Shocker, Nico, etc, etc. 2015 has hooked me into Marvel Legends more than ever before (especially now that I have adequate display space), so I now hang on a thread near any announcements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

Of course...this would be the part where I remind folks that Toy Fair often is pretty light on Marvel reveals...which they often hold back until SDCC. I bet we don't see the full Dr. Strange wave, but do get a couple teases for it.

I dunno, last year they revealed more at Toy Fair than they did at SDCC '14 and '15 combined. We caught our first glimpses of the Hulkbuster, Ultron and Rhino waves last year, and since this is supposed to be "the biggest year for MLs ever," I'm keeping my hopes toward the boil...

[Boy Blunder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonPooten

To be honest, even if there are no surprises, I just can't wait to see Cable, Havok, Kitty, Miles, Silk, Shocker, Nico, etc, etc. 2015 has hooked me into Marvel Legends more than ever before (especially now that I have adequate display space), so I now hang on a thread near any announcements.

Ugh, tell me about it. We had three MLs before 2015. I just did a recount of how many we have now, and it's over 30. And it doesn't look like there's gonna be any slowing down through 2016.

[hasbroherofan]

I wonder if the Baron Mordo is going to be the MCU version as well, if only because it was said to be "Karl Mordo", and it's been said that in the movie they're going on a different take on the character. He might not be called Baron Mordo in the first one.

I'm really hoping the Miles one is legit because I'd kill for one.

[Jmacq1]

Huh. That's...kind of an underwhelming wave for Dr. Strange. Ancient One is a surprise, but not necessarily a terribly welcome one. Nico is also a surprise, but a good one (though gonna be lonely without the other Runaways). Iron Fist seems out of place and had a perfectly good version not all that long ago. Ah well. The rest of the list looks pretty good (whether it's comic or movie Mordo doesn't matter to me...I'll take 'em) and here's hoping the BAF isn't just a repaint of the SDCC Dormammu.

The Spider-Man wave sounds decent. Shocker and Electro are long overdue. We really need a 6" Mysterio, though....

[Harbinger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArsGratiaArtis

Asian Superman.


Mexican Wonder Woman.


You were saying?

yes but linda carter doesnt LOOK mexican and and dean cain didt LOOK Asian. All i am saying is rather than give in to lazyiness, cast a whole new character or do something like jmacq said....as long as danny looks like Danny i wouldnt care much for his parentage. Im saying if they want iron fist as a full on asian msle make a NEW character with a whole new history rather than just slap an asian dude into a character with years of history.

Back on figure topic, the strange wave ancient is( gawds i hope not) would likely be jadis the white witch.....i mean the movie ancient one. Hope they show us at toy fair

[TheBlueMarvel]

@Von

This Iron Fist convo is interesting and ties into elements of our discussion from a week ago. The owner of my LCS clued me into Marvel's trepidation over Danny a few months back. As he described it, Marvel is afraid of going all-in on Iron Fist for fear of offending Asian sensibilities (most notably, ticket sales in China). The source of the offense being similar to some of the sour taste developed behind the "American Ninja" (children of the 80's might be more familiar with this reference - 'The Last Samurai' might be a better analogy) phenomenon, wherein a blonde-blued-eyed Western protagonist is used to highlight (master) aspects of an Eastern culture. I get it, and agree that it's a miscast opportunity (as you mentioned), but I also think there is value in embracing canon...blemishes and all.

Oddly, this scenario reminds me of Hudlin's run on Panther, albeit a bit of writing that I found to be poignant and hilarious. There's a panel where Luke is chatting with Panther and the Master of Kung-Fu is brought up. Luke relates that he doesn't know who Shang-Chi is and T'challa openly questions how it's possible that in his long friendship with Danny, the "Master of Kung-fu" was never brought up. They drop the conversation, but the moment was definitely intended to be an awkward one. LOL

In any event, I believe that poorly conceived contemporary solutions for past slights (perceived or otherwise) can lead to a deepening of the quagmire. Immortal Iron Fist handled the sketchy nature of Danny's mantle of "Iron Fist" pretty well (IMO). Danny was treated as an outsider and had to work very hard at becoming accepted in Kunlun. I agree that changing portions of a character's ethos for MCU purposes is no real dealbreaker, especially now that we've had to accept all sorts of changes. My solution, as you might know, is play up Shang-Chi! As much as I love Danny, I love Shang-Chi that much more!

...also, the "white hero as a champion of an Asian cultural subset," may not be the only reason for hesitation. It might be China's (representative of the largest foreign consumer market) tense relationship with Tibet. It could also be the impetus for the changes to the MCU's "Ancient One."

[donmeca2020]

I agree with nitelife and his constant use of the word bloody...

But in all seriousness, i feel the same way they need to stop changing characters ethnicites,sex, and sexual orientation... why would they NEED to change danny rand to an Asian now?i thought they're trying to stay with continuity? ? At least with their films somewhat... i already know they screwed with alot of the characters in the comics thus far.

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donmeca2020

i thought they're trying to stay with continuity? ? At least with their films somewhat... i already know they screwed with alot of the characters in the comics thus far.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Continuity with what? The movies and TV shows have all taken big liberties.

[En Sabah Nerd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

At this point I'm wondering if anyone on Tony's side besides Rhodey (and maybe Vision) is really on his side.

I could totally see Vision betraying Iron Man as this is actually how Captain America beat Iron Man in the comics version of Civil War. He had Vision (who was on his team in that version) phase through Iron Man's chest and disable his armor long enough for Cap to kick Tony's ass. Granted this MCU Vision is not the same as the Vision who was in the comic story at the time (it was Jonas, 616 Vision from the future). We'll see when the movie comes out.

[hasbroherofan]

I have a feeling Vision may be the one to say "To hell with all this" and just leave.

[SymbiSpidey]

I've said it before that I don't want writers to deliberately change a character's race for the sake of "diversity". However, if it's something done, say, because it would make sense for that character's background story or if the best guy for the job happens to be someone of a different race, then I don't mind.


Like with The Human Torch, I didn't mind Michael B. Jordan playing him. To me, he's the perfect guy for the job without race being a factor, and even playing the adopted sibling angle between him and Sue fits for the overall theme of the Fantastic Four. Of course, that movie had a slew of other problems.

But if you were to change, say, Captain America or Black Panther's race, I would be 100% against that. Because conceptually, it doesn't make sense for them to be any race other than what they are.