[Joe Moore]

NieR: RepliCant/Gestalt Kainé Bring Arts Figure

[Stormtrooper53]

Goodness me.

[AttilaTheBum]

Yes I think I'm gonna need a cold shower...right after I go ahead and preorder! 🙄

[Chopper Face]

Holy crap; I might have to buy this purely for the sex appeal. How weird is that?!

[ddarko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper Face

Holy crap; I might have to buy this purely for the sex appeal. How weird is that?!

Pretty weird considering that "she" is a hermaphrodite lol.

[ronriii]

What I do love about Kaine being a hermaphrodite is that it's actually treated seriously as part of her backstory as an outcast and serves to inform her coarse/rough personality. Yoko Taro purposely created Kaine as a way to humanize those who are treated as an other in society with that mindset carrying over to Emil's character.

Beyond that, I like that in-game she's treated as a woman through and through, in which her wearing skimpy clothes/lingerie is also her way of owning her femininity. I do hope they go far in expanding the line and hopefully make the rest of the cast from the original Nier.

[ddarko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronriii

What I do love about Kaine being a hermaphrodite is that it's actually treated seriously as part of her backstory as an outcast and serves to inform her coarse/rough personality. Yoko Taro purposely created Kaine as a way to humanize those who are treated as an other in society with that mindset carrying over to Emil's character.

Beyond that, I like that in-game she's treated as a woman through and through, in which her wearing skimpy clothes/lingerie is also her way of owning her femininity. I do hope they go far in expanding the line and hopefully make the rest of the cast from the original Nier.

I get what you mean. But personally, I feel that Japanese content tend to go way off the mark in trying to make such points. For an example, to tackle the problem of being a social outcast, they did not need to go to the extreme of making the person a hermaphrodite. That is just a weird choice, not to mention the unnecessary complications it results when tackling the relationships aspect.

Of course, all of this is still fine if the content producers actually tackle these things objectively and kept it realistic. But most often, you find these sort of content merely appeal to emotions to nudge you toward feeling some sort of "complexity" in the situation. To make matters worse, the situations that lead to these dilemmas do not actually exist in the real world (eg. there are no hermaphrodite human beings in real life).

It is also most often the case that the authors of the content are folks who are far from being experts in ethics or philosophy. Of course, one could argue that the emotionalism fits with the "over the top" exaggerated nature of Japanese content, and that is indeed its charm. But it is tiring and quickly becomes hard to relate to unless one abandons all desire for objective analysis.

So in regards to this particular character, is it odd that human beings feel a rather oddness about her state of affairs? YES! But, there is actually nothing wrong with feeling that oddness because things are not as they should be for a human being. Once one realizes that, the plot point of making Kaine a hermaphrodite starts to become pointless. Why? Because no one in their right mind should suddenly start feeling that Kaine is in a normal situation. It would have been far more effective to draw attention to the issue of ostracizing by taking some other realistic attribute.

[ronriii]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddarko

snip

I understand what you mean but I do disagree in this particular case. I feel that Yoko Taro's way of framing an issue through a fantastical lens doesn't serve as a detriment to the intended narrative and I feel it actually creates a believable and coherent fantasy that doesn't break immersion, all while still managing to relate abstract feelings that people can relate to.

Kaine's situation is still applicable to issues faced by inters[e]x and trans people, in which I've seen such fans relate to Kaine's gendered stigmatization in-universe. To simply dismiss that feels a bit presumptuous just because you don't find it convincing. Her dilemma isn't somehow diminished just because you don't find the circumstances behind it to be realistic enough, especially when the core issues she deals with can actually be applied to similar problems people have faced in terms of gender identity politics, e.g. questioning/mocking someone's affirmation of their gender identity. Just because it doesn't tackle it based on a completely realistic attribute, it doesn't mean players can't relate to the feelings and experiences of the characters in the games. This is a point that Yoko Taro has addressed when it comes to his character conception and story writing wherein his focus lies on communicating an experience that people can still relate to despite purposely choosing fantastical and inhuman concepts like replicants or androids for his stories.

You mention this attribute as an example of "[nudging] you toward feeling some sort of "complexity" in the situation" when the game doesn't even mention it in the story and only focuses on the narrative of Kaine being ostracized by her village, in which you can only find out about this attribute and the circumstances surrounding it through side materials. I think this makes it obvious that Taro's focus was characterizing Kaine's turmoil as someone whose gender identity was mocked and questioned in the past, as opposed to making a big deal about the fantastical detail of her being an unintended hermaphrodite caused by the fickleness of the Replicant system (yeah no). It doesn't make it pointless since it actually manages to enforce a narrative that people are still able to relate to.

My point in bringing up my appreciation for Yoko Taro's creative intent is because people tend to make a big deal out of it when the game actually doesn't: be it as some form of twisted fanservice (when it wasn't) or as if that puts Kaine's femininity into question, enough that it deserves making light of someone using the pronoun "she" (ironically a realistic issue when it comes to gender identity politics) even though she's still very much treated as a woman. The fact that there wasn't even any malicious intent behind this attribute makes it even weirder to draw attention to it in such a way.

I don't mean any animosity by positing an argument (I apologize if my language comes across as such and feel free to disagree of course), but it's exactly why I centered my initial post on the sincerity behind Yoko Taro's intent instead of propping it up some sort of flawless triumph in making a political statement, the latter of which wasn't my intention at all.

[ddarko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronriii

....Her dilemma isn't somehow diminished just because you don't find the circumstances behind it to be realistic enough, especially when the core issues she deals with can actually be applied to similar problems people have faced in terms of gender identity politics, e.g. questioning/mocking someone's affirmation of their gender identity....

I think you touch upon a very important point that perhaps best illustrates what I found problematic.

Hermaphrodites, if it ever came into existence, would actually be grounded in something empirically observable and tangible i.e. the person has both types of organs. Same applies for inter-sexed since we are talking about a condition that is genetically verifiable. But the entire concept of a malleable gender identity hinges on something that is completely opposite i.e. a person claiming that what is empirically verifiable about themselves is actually contradictory with they would like to be/experience as being/identified with etc.

So in one sense, making Kaine stand as the analogy for those who are ostracized for promoting/living a concept of gender identity feels dishonest. The two issues are not comparable. Those who oppose the concept of gender identity politics do so on the grounds that there simply isn't an empirically verifiable grounding for it (claiming a different gender than ones sex). But rather than address this concern, it would be cheating to resort to making a hermaphrodite stand as an icon for gender identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronriii

...It doesn't make it pointless since it actually manages to enforce a narrative that people are still able to relate to.

But the issue is that hermaphrodites actually do not exist. Secondly, it is different from gender identity because hermaphrodite condition would be empirically grounded (if it did exist).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronriii

I don't mean any animosity by positing an argument (I apologize if my language comes across as such and feel free to disagree of course), but it's exactly why I centered my initial post on the sincerity behind Yoko Taro's intent instead of propping it up some sort of flawless triumph in making a political statement, the latter of which wasn't my intention at all.

No offense taken my friend ! What good is there with having forums and discussion boards if persons cannot exchange ideas in agreement or disagreement. So I personally am glad you posted back because it made me think (and lookup on the internet) about somethings as well.

Thinking along the points you have raised, I would now grant that the game does draw focus onto a similar condition (inter-sexed) that does not get much attention these days (perhaps because it gets lost from gender identity politics that has become more dominant in discussions today). Persons who are faced with the intersex condition do have a heavy cross to bear. In that sense, I do find some fault with the creator/author of the game in that the nuances of such a particular condition were not explored. But yes, you can take heart that because of our discussion, at the very least, I do see Kaine as a character that can draw our attention to an important topic that is largely unheard of today.

Dare I also say it, due to what you have said, I have come to appreciate the character as well !

[ronriii]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddarko

So in one sense, making Kaine stand as the analogy for those who are ostracized for promoting/living a concept of gender identity feels dishonest. The two issues are not comparable.
--
But rather than address this concern, it would be cheating to resort to making a hermaphrodite stand as an icon for gender identity.

I actually recognize this potential issue, but I guess looking at the other side of it (how its able to relate gender issues to people) tips the balance in its favor as a positive rather than a negative in my eyes. I do understand that it could come across as dishonest (understandably so), but it's why I consider the part about her being a hermaphrodite as more fantastical/symbolic than outright literal in depicting the issue. I feel this is further exemplified by the fact that this attribute is brought on by a fantastical element in the story by way of the Replicant system, in which it reinforces how Nier the game tends to draw from fairytale motifs and leans on figurative storytelling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddarko

Dare I also say it, due to what you have said, I have come to appreciate the character as well !

I'm pleasantly surprised, thanks! I hope I didn't sound condescending because I do recognize the perspective you're taking here and the concerns you brought on are completely valid. In this particular case, my appreciation of Kaine's character stems from a noticeable sincerity behind the creative intent that feels genuine instead of one that reads as philosophically pompous.

NOTE: Sorry if I can't quote some of your points in full. Forum won't let me post certain words (hence my using brackets like so "[]") since it essentially treats me as a new member due to my very little post count.