Hate is not a political opinion, it's no better than pedophilia or murder, and it is a form of abuse.

Look, Daryl Davis is a brave guy, but he doesn't owe Klansmen anything, and he risked his life every time he sought to reform one. That's not a reasonable request to make of anyone. I have no objection to people risking their lives to educate ignorant pieces of shit, should they choose to do so, but it is nobody's responsibility. What is their responsibility is not to propogate that ignorance. People in this thread keep saying things like "silence the opposition" and "any voice that doesn't agree with you", phrases that are painting with a pretty broad stroke. I have no interest in silencing anyone, nor am I incapable of facing disagreement. I simply understand that hate is emboldened when it is tolerated, so I don't tolerate it. It's disingenuous to liken that to jailing political opposition or whatever other slippery slope you were implying, because that acknowledges hate as rational discourse, which it is not.

I agree that hate is not an alternative to rational discourse, but Ive seen so many posts from the left on this thread and elsewhere that say hateful/derogatory things about Gina. Look, I don’t particularly agree with her post, but to say it’s hateful really muddles the meaning and severity of the word hate.

I also disagree with the notion that hate is the same severity as rape, pedophilia and murder. The feelings of hate can change, the acts of what I listed cannot be.

I found the other Gina post that was anti-Semitic. Oddly enough Ice Cube Tweeted the same picture, and it was also unwittingly used by BLM in the past.

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antis...on-2020-640435

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dai...ial-mural.html

The original artist never intended it to be anti-Semitic, but more of a social commentary on socioeconomic inequalities.

Isn't it interesting how Carano supporters are suddenly very concerned about hate now it's directed at her (and conservatives in general) but like to gloss over the reason she they are getting this criticism is because of their own behaviour towards others.

If people want empathy and understanding they need to extend that to others first. Nearly half a million Americans have died of covid and Carano is spreading covid denialism, where is her empathy for the victims and their families? Trans people are one of the most vulnerable and misunderstood groups in Western societies, where was her empathy and understanding for them? Jewish people were exterminated for being born Jewish, and she compares that to choosing to express "conservative" (read: bigoted, because they aren't getting "cancelled" for expressing concern about budget deficits) in public, where is her empathy and understanding there?

As for "silencing disagreement" or whatever nonsense, you cannot disagree on peoples fundamental human right to exist safely and free of persecution if you claim to aspire to a free and civil society.

Well, I'm not sure the ideas of a singular person can save a nation and any effort to achieve such a lofty goal would need to be a communal one involving numerous diverse voices. That said, I don't think we would find ourselves in such a poor state if we as a nation had started a sincere and longitudinal dialogue on the dynamics of race immediately following the Civil Rights Movement.

The impetus for societal change and awareness started during the Civil Rights struggle sputtered after the assassinations of numerous luminaries of the movement. The list of killings of pivotal figures within and adjacent to the movement is a tragically long one: Medgar Evers, Malik el-Shabazz, JFK, Robert Kennedy, and Dr. King just to name a scant (but poignant) few. Whatever one might think about the forces and intentions behind this collection of killings, the affect was the chilling of what was an incredibly transformative period of American history. Much like the energies at play now, people had grown tired of hatred and there was a ground swell of sentiment among a citizenry that wanted to move beyond what we'd been (collectively) as a nation.

Despite the murder of numerous Civil Rights figures, the nation moved forward in a largely nonreflective manner. Sure, policies were drafted and passed into law, but the country progressed in a sort of fugue state, one that barely acknowledged the brutal end to the movement let alone discussing viable paths forward. In contrast to the assassinations of key characters doing the work of evolving society, the powers that be moved on as if everything was fine and the mission of equality had been successfully achieved. Meanwhile, an uneasy populace was left with the trauma of heroes slain, continued disenfranchisement, and no real framework or guidance on how to complete a mission so obviously left unfinished.

In my opinion the path to healing lie in reaching some mutually shared sense of truth. Much like the deconstruction of Apartheid South Africa, I believe we could have used a similar truth and reconciliation commission. Honestly, after Jan 6 and the Senate's cowardice refusing to hold insurrectionists accountable, on Saturday, I believe we could benefit from just such a commission today. Accountability is supposed to be something our nation believes in (or, at least, it's mouthed to certain communities as a virtue to strive for - heh, with certain exceptions..), but I seriously wonder what we stand for at this point.

My honest opinion is that the polarization that has been ginned up and fanned into a raging fire is a manipulative cudgel wielded by a dominant few fearful losing grip on their power over the country. These individuals are stoking fear in the masses, seeding ideas about changing racial demographics evidenced in the election of the first biracial president. The fomenting of fear is an endgame bid to maintain 'status-quo' in light of the realities of 2045 (2040 by new estimates) census trends. Fear of annihilation is an incredible motivator in the psyche of mankind; it brings out some very ugly things and cynical political forces are playing a dangerous game in flirting with these primal motivators with a race-based spin.

The sooner we realize how race is used to separate us, the sooner we will all will truly be free and happy.

I imagine this isn't the exact answer you were looking for, but it's late and I'm feeling particularly candid.

I generally like Cube, but he's not someone I defer to and the same goes for BLM. While I appreciate their passion and believe their intentions to be mostly well-meaning, as with anyone, there's a great deal of room for growth.

FYI - that is not the photo Gina tweeted, but it is the source on which her image was based. One of the mantras I live by is that it's not difficult for me to respect the cultural sensibilities of others. This isn't just a default for me, but a preference. Regardless of the intentions, I find the source material and Gina's bootleg to be obviously offensive. Whomever created that mural needs a friend willing to pull their ear and say, "uhh bruh, you may want to review some of the tropes in your imagery." But that's my opinion, others (the artist in question especially) might disagree.

Ehn, the artist can say that but it’s a lie. I see a table of stereotypical Jews as the money man trivially playing with the entire world for apparent greed and amusement. The imagery is very clearly drawing on classic anti-semitic conspiracy theory. Just because there’s not dreidels and yarmulkes all over the place doesn’t mean it isn’t exactly what it looks like.

e2a: I can understand if the public at large can look at this mural and not see Jewish men, but the artist, Cube, and Carano all know what it is.

Cube has a history of anti-semitic/homophobic/anti-white lyrics and involvement with the Nation of Islam (via Chuck D, who has similar issues). He’s harder to “cancel” than bruiser lady but it’s not as if he’s getting away with anything.

Tropes indeed. Can such clichéd crap still qualify as art? It toes the line of racist propaganda.

Divorce the 2 meanings of the word “hate” in your own head. Strongly disliking Cara Dune =/= ignorant bigotry.

You think that because you’ve been taught it’s okay to hate. Maybe some of the mainstream messaging about tolerance and inclusivity have seeped in over the years, but mostly you’ll dismiss it as “liberal bullshit” or somesuch because your family and friends have either been radicalized or thoroughly desensitized and conditioned to be complacent. They don’t take racism seriously and some of them may be pretty overt racists. But it’s ok, because they’re your people and they have a legitimate gripe about what was taken away from them, amirite?

Ask James Byrd Jr or Matthew Shepard how harmless hate is.

As Thor Laserpunch mentioned, we seem to have a misalignment of terminology here. When I say 'hate', I'm not talking about hatred. The two terms aren't equivalent. Sure, hate is partially rooted in hatred, but hating someone is not what's at issue. It's the exercise of hate, as in "hate crime" and "hate speech". I can't speak for the left at large, and I'm sure people have been tossing hate at her in ways that are equally problematic. I only saw one person do it in this thread, and he was called out for it. I don't hate Gina Carano. I'm obviously not an expert on her mindset or beliefs, but she seems to me to be someone who has only recently begun to drink the poison. Regrettably and predictably, the more blowback she suffers for enabling hate, the more she seems to be doubling down on it. Hopefully she has friends and family who can talk some sense into her. All the rest of us can do is voice disapproval of her, and support her de-platforming.

Again, I hope this is just a miscommunication of terminology, but the existence of hate does active damage too. Rapists can feel remorse for their actions, but it doesn't undo the damage they've done. The same is true of people "changing their minds" about being bigots and contributing to the spread of hate. It doesn't help people feel safe or even mitigate any specific damage they may have actively caused by continuing to spread that disease. I'm sorry, but the existence of racists is the threat. Individual racists changing their minds doesn't absolve them of complicity, and excusing their speech as "just their political beliefs"--in the name of moderation, bipartisan compromise, or whatever else--is perhaps the most insidious means of enabling hate.

When I was a teenager starting college I was a ball of anxious intellectual energy; learning so much more about the world than what had been made available through traditional schooling. As a marginalized African American male, many of the conspiracies that influenced Cube found resonance within me and while he wasn't my favorite rapper (KRS still holds that spot - similar messaging, albeit with a more succinct and cerebral Pan-African bent) I appreciated and liked his music if only for its open challenge to status quo. While Cube went on to become a multi-millionaire celebrity insulating himself in an echo-chamber right off the bat by allowing the NOI (Nation of Islam) to manipulate him (to an extent, Cube definitely possesses a mind of his own), I on the other hand was working towards a political science degree with intentions of going to law school (changed that up when I got a feel for the field and its pitfalls). There's no value judgement here and the only distinction I'm making is that despite his millions and the fame, I may have had an advantage in untethering myself from the conspiracies targeted at both of us as black males of a similar age and demographic.

I understand how people who lack access to knowledge of how systems (i.e. governance, finance, law, medicine, etc) work can become susceptible to taking shortcuts to understanding. Been there, done that shit.. It can be quite intimidating when attempting to self-educate on the numerous topics underneath the sun impacting our lives and most would prefer to find some personality or guru who can make sense of life for them. However, this cult of personality approach is incredibly dangerous especially with the contents of Pandora's Box spilling out in every direction via the intertubes. I admonish everyone to talk to each other, directly if you can, but always think for yourself and litmus test ideas others foist upon you.

You are completely correct in your criticisms of both Chuck D and Cube. I won't challenge or be an apologist for either, even though the former (Chuck) of the two was a very important musical icon to me for a long stretch of my life. We're all humans, prone to the same failings with similar potential for enlightenment. Just as I was able to pull away from toxic beliefs, I have to believe others are capable of the same movement in philosophy, especially when provided with the tools (truth/objective and accurate historical reference and lived experience) to see through lies and manipulations.

Yeah, to me, that piece is painfully and obviously racist. That person could benefit from examining themselves a bit more closely.

As I type this, I see a TBS Cara Dune auction at $147.50 on the side bar...

Chuck never really hid who he is if you listen to the lyrics but I try to just be mindful of what sows its seeds in between the old earholes and let the whole be more than the sum of its parts when listening to songs with a particular line or two I find distasteful. I've found trying to separate how I feel about art and artist can be fucking maddening, particularly when so many entertainers have shamed themselves openly and unapologetically in recent years.

Chris Pratt also knows when to keep his mouth shut for the most part.

Let's not forget the same cryptofascists lamenting the loss of Gina, who is, again, someone propagating not only transphobia/racism and the other bullshit, but dangerous conspiracy theories during an epidemic that have already gotten thousands of people killed, were the same people to get James Gunn fired for years old tweets.

If people think this means that Disney has some sort of far left then they're out of touch with reality. Even thinking about Wandavision(admitedly one of the better things they've done in a while) they have a white actress playing a Romani(i.e. closer to Indian than european) character who makes racist comments about the comic character's origins, and shrunk Finn to a teeny size on a poster to appeal to (supposedly anyway) Chinese anti-blackness.

Disney are a conservative company, but they're not fascists. People complaining about how the LOONY LEFT are out of control are being disingenuous or ignorant fucks at best. The right has descended into whackjob conspiracies. Not that "conservativism" wasn't always founded on some degree of maintaining a white supremacist, colonialist status quo. Even most liberals are to some degree.

So it's okay for her to dehumanise trans people but people can't say mean things to her back.

People demand so much from us and just want us to suffer continually in case our existence hurts the fee fees of weird fascists.

are you someone who's had to live under a regime that has systematically stomped on your rights. i mean in actuality, not conservative white guy persecution complex.

hate kills. the UK has gone absolutely crazy with anti-trans hate atm to the point where people are being granted asylum for it. their hate of immigrations caused them to sabotage their own country via brexit.

This is absolutely the opposite of true in many cases and a big part of why we've seen the rise of *literal neonazis* is because of people using rhetoric like this. We're not talking here about FREEZE PEECH but of consequences. IF people experience consequences for being black, trans or whatever and existing, that's NBD for you. But Allah forbid someone be fired for promoting conspiracies that FUCKING GOT PEOPLE KILLED.

It's pretty fucking blatant that the *lack* of moderation of fucked up conspiracies is a big part of why you have at least one 9/11 dying in the US every day now. I think on some level, you know this. So what kind of fucking person does it take to say "Hey you know that thing we've seen to be OBJECTIVELY FALSE over the last 5 years, can you LIBERAL CUCKS just accept it's the true and good thing actually."

At the end of the day aside from creating a safe space for conspiracy bullshit that's one of the biggest killers right now you're demanding people like me put up with constant dehumanisation and live under conditions you'll never understand. If you do that, you're fucking disgusting and don't deserve respect from anyone. It's not your place to tell people who already get a massive shit taken on them every other day what to put up with.

I don't have to respectfully engage with anyone who doesn't think I have a right to basic dignity.

I'm so fucking beyond done with this shit. You're not fucking worldwise. No dipshit unironically using a Comedian avatar is going to be. Moore is a far left anarchist. Stop being a fucking idiot.

Yes, and let's be absolutely fucking clear what's being said here.

What's being said is that trans people deserve to be mocked, raped, killed and people have no right to call that shit out. That's their definition of "freeze peach".

And anything else is gaslighting bullshit so just don't. It's what they're fucking saying.

so you're just going to insult like, every other anti-racist activist out there?

Because one dude managed to (apparently) change minds, everyone else has to work for that?

Do you seriously expect me, someone who already has too much anxiety to function day to day, to debate every dipshit transphobe the UK media is putting out these days?

Traditionally the way to deal with far right extremism has been to *shut that shit down*. The only way Nazis punks were gotten out of the punk scene where people *physically forcing them out*. Or or two turns up and they're "real great blokes" and they flood in that way and suddenly it's the blacks and gays that aren't allowed in.

Educate yourself on how people actually deal with this shit on a wider scale.

I have no reason to respect anyone who rejects my humanity. I afford them more basic human respect than they do me, but I will call a piece of shit a piece of shit.

remember when you talk about "Disagreements" and "opinions" that for other people, it's not that at all, it's their fucking lives.

Angry people seem to be on both sides. I’m able to separate a fictional character from the personal beliefs of its creator. See, again, I’m willing to listen to both sides. But the extremes of both sides are unwilling to listen to each other. The extremes are not the majority, just the loudest. Some how the extremists on the left and right always need everyone to agree with them completely, almost a cult on both sides. In the end, I believe what I believe. I need no one to validate it or accept. I am confident in myself and what have learned and continue to learn. I still change my mind on things as new evidence comes to light....on anything.

I really think many extremists are just simply beyond unhappy and always looking to blame some one else for their own feelings of doubt. My first thought with your post was...wow someone from Ireland, I have Irish from my mothers side. I thought, wow perhaps I can converse with this person. But alas, when all you look for is demons that is what you will find.

Well said sir. I really don’t identify with either side and make up my mind on a case by case basis by listening to what each person says and deciding if I feel
will do a good job and serve the best interest of myself and others when elected when I vote. Landing somewhere in the middle I often feel alone because I use critical thinking and my own moral compass to make up my own mind rather than toeing a party line.

As it pertains to this topic she posted some things that she believed I didn’t agree with her but hey she’s entitled to her opinion and I scrolled by and went about my day. I think had she left the Holocaust comparisons out of it some people would still be upset, some would still agree with her and they would argue about it online for hours ,but she would have stood a better chance at remaining employed. Again that’s just my opinion.

I literally just told you to not both sides this shit. Both sidesing shit is the problem, because it lets one side get away with becoming increasingly dangerous.

It's a false equivalence. On "My side" people are fucking dying.

Don’t tell me what to do. I suggest turning off the news, and stop letting them divide. The news always puts nutballs on to get fear and ratings. I was a huge goth, and have friends and family who are transsexual. I have zero idea where you live that people are being killed for that. You act like you are the only person on earth. There are 8 billion and lots of them are jerks. I believe someone like you could throw everyone you deem a danger, into a pit and still find issues with something. You come off as someone whom has some issue with everything and will never be satisfied. There are few times i I find a person to be an actual wall. Mission accomplished.