[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Are you a liner because that is how you see yourself, or are you a liner because that is how others see you?

Now that's getting into an entirely harder thing to explain about self-proclamations compared to actions.

It is something interesting to look at though with how often people fall for the self-professed whatevers over those that just do it silently without praise or labels.

It's very complicated and hard for people to agree on what constitutes what.

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Purpose and use yields the name. The floor is always the floor because people always stand on it while another can sit on it.
To the person the floor below though, your floor is their ceiling. So are you sitting on the floor, or a ceiling?

I'm sitting on a chair, so I hear.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Now that's getting into an entirely harder thing to explain about self-proclamations compared to actions.

It is something interesting to look at though with how often people fall for the self-professed whatevers over those that just do it silently without praise or labels.

It's very complicated and hard for people to agree on what constitutes what.

Well, it all has to do with the nature of self, whether we are who we are or if it is how others perceive us that makes us who we are.

For instance, I might consider myself to be a funny bastard, while others may see me as an internet troll.

But which am I? Is my self who I see myself as, or am I actually how others perceive me?

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

I'm sitting on a chair, so I hear.

By sitting in it, you give it purpose, hence it is a chair for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Well, it all has to do with the nature of self, whether we are who we are or if it is how others perceive us that makes us who we are.

For instance, I might consider myself to be a funny bastard, while others may see me as an internet troll.

But which am I? Is my self who I see myself as, or am I actually how others perceive me?

Yup. There was a story we had to analyze in modern thought that had to do with that about an old man who saw himself as a monster, but did nothing wrong, and hid his thoughts of himself from all by only doing good deeds, and a boy with a self-professed heart of gold who stole an old woman's purse for pocket cash.

Most of the class was tripped up by the heart of gold, trying to rationalize the boy's actions as needed for bread for his family, or whatever other sob story could drive a pure innocent boy to those actions, missing the point of the pocket cash... Spending cash. They also thought the man was a true monster though he had never done anything wrong and only done good deeds, saying that if he felt that way, he must have done something but it clearly states he had not.

Perception is fallible, and human nature falls for the self-professed falsities over reality. So the answer is really neither about what you think you are or how others perceive you. It's your actions that define you. Just as others will call someone an asshole for pointing out bullying that needs to stop because they feel it's funny. Is the person doing the right thing by pointing it out for what it is? Or is everyone else right for laughing at it and calling the one against the tide an asshole?

Outside perception is as flawed as internal.

[Tiberius]

So, if I talk into a Banana, and it talks back [to me only], is it a phone?

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

So, if I talk into a Banana, and it talks back [to me only], is it a phone?

It makes that banana an imaginary banana phone. *Cue music!* As that's what you are using it for.


Similiar idea. Take a box. To adults it's a box, but to kids it's everything they want it to be.

[Tiberius]

I don't know. Everyones talking about purpose and shit. A chairs main purpose is to sit on, however it can be used for other things, like smacking across peoples faces. A floors main thing is for you to stand on, but you can sit if you will. Where am I going with this? Fuck it this thread is scary, to much free thought for me.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Now that's getting into an entirely harder thing to explain about self-proclamations compared to actions.

It is something interesting to look at though with how often people fall for the self-professed whatevers over those that just do it silently without praise or labels.

It's very complicated and hard for people to agree on what constitutes what.

I don't think so. There's a lot more out there than our senses can perceive. I agree with that completely, and I tend to follow that.
It seems a simple fact that I'm what constitutes as a "Liner" by their definition.

I posted that because I thought it was relevant and fitting to the thread. I didn't intend to start a debate or an argument about it. or to be made to feel like I'm being treated like a tool by a small throwaway comment. (Not that you may have intended that, but it comes off that way)

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

I don't think so. There's a lot more out there than our senses can perceive. I agree with that completely, and I tend to follow that.
It seems a simple fact that I'm what constitutes as a "Liner" by their definition.

I posted that because I thought it was relevant and fitting to the thread. I didn't intend to start a debate or an argument about it. or to be made to feel like I'm being treated like a tool by a small throwaway comment. (Not that you may have intended that, but it comes off that way)

Oh don't worry. It wasn't a throwaway comment. It forced the thread into a much larger realm of thought that's harder to narrow down. If anything you contributed something that both fits and yet enhances the discussion into something larger that's much more complicated than witty one line answers I was trying to do can cover.

That's why I quoted Classified over what you said. You contributed something, and he took it to a level that's much harder for people to grasp around past the "I think this therefore I am" type debate. It's a complicated line of both.

In other words. I really like this thread and all the replies. It's interesting to think about.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Oh don't worry. It wasn't a throwaway comment. It forced the thread into a much larger realm of thought that's harder to narrow down. If anything you contributed something that both fits and yet enhances the discussion into something larger that's much more complicated than witty one line answers I was trying to do can cover.

I ment my little "I'm a liner" comment that you were speaking about was the throwaway comment.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

I ment my little "I'm a liner" comment that you were speaking about was the throwaway comment.

Which is what opened up the confines of the discussion from that about reality to nature of self as Classified pointed out.

Does it mean you are or aren't? Well that's the problem to perception. Are we really what we say we are or are we the byproduct of what others view us as? Are both right or neither?

I didn't mean to insult you by continuing on with that discussion of self. It was never aimed at you in particular, which also goes back to perception.

You perceived what I said as belittling you, that was not the intent, but you viewed it as the intent, so it was a byproduct of what I said which gives it definition to that no matter how I meant it as. Reality's a bitch like that. xD

[Crazy Jetty]

Lol. Like I'd said in my original responce, I knew you didn't mean it the way if came off, which is why I wasn't actually insulted. But it did make me feel a little defensive.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Perception is fallible, and human nature falls for the self-professed falsities over reality. So the answer is really neither about what you think you are or how others perceive you. It's your actions that define you.

Yes, but not always.

I could be a complete asshole at heart, but not in thought. Heck, I probably think I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe I go around doing nice things, but only so that people will like me, or maybe for some other selfish reason.

My actions might make me a nice guy, people may like me, and I might think I'm great; but deep down I'm an asshole.

If no one ever finds out I am, in their reality I really am a great guy, but ultimately am I still an asshole? Or is reality subjective?

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Yes, but not always.

I could be a complete asshole at heart, but not in thought. Heck, I probably think I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe I go around doing nice things, but only so that people will like me, or maybe for some other selfish reason.

My actions might make me a nice guy, people may like me, and I might think I'm great; but deep down I'm an asshole.

If no one ever finds out I am, in their reality I really am a great guy, but ultimately am I still an asshole? Or is reality subjective?

That's why it's complicated between the line of self-perception and actions. Even if deep down you think you are an asshole, and an asshole at heart, you've never displayed it as the example states. So you'd be someone that thinks little of themself while others see what you do and think you a good person.

It's completely subjective in that regard, but it also can work both ways. You can stand up for what's right and have the world tell you to shut up for being different even in being correct. Does that make the world right, or you? Does majority control perception, or does self?

So yup, reality as perceived by mankind is subjective as well as flawed. At least in my views.

Then again, I'm also clouded by my own personal reality from falling for the self-professed nature of others while their actions spoke otherwise until I finally decided enough was enough and stopped bothering with them because of what their repeated actions were doing(certain IRL friends and an ex-Girlfriend). To them, I'm an asshole for giving up on a friendship. To me, they were the assholes for groping my ex/gf while I was still seeing her, always competing in everything about who has the hottest g/f and other belittlement that goes beyond friendly trash talk. The perceptions of both parties are complicated and can be rationalized by whatever. The end result though is the same and I'm much happier having made new friends.

It's what has colored my perception though to frown on all forms of braggarts and self-professed kings of whatever.

[CLASSIFIED]

In my own personal reality I find knowing that reality is subjective to be very useful in my dealings with others.

Subjective reality isn,t neccesarily flawed though, but I guess it is your reality... nevermind.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

In my own personal reality I find knowing that reality is subjective to be very useful in my dealings with others.

Subjective reality isn,t neccesarily flawed though, but I guess it is your reality... nevermind.

Oh it is very useful. I just tend to find that mankind will hold to their perceptions of self-professed whatever that constitutes issues in accepting what they do in practice while hiding behind what they say they are.

So it's complicated, but again you also can't really overgeneralize like I'm doing. From a handful of bad experiences from manipulative control freaks I shouldn't condemn all of mankind by the example they set. So my perception is flawed by that overgeneralization and distaste of braggarts and judgemental people.

It's a very complicated issue though even when you look at larger groups that profess the greater good and instead are inhibiting the rights of those that have done nothing to them. That debate we really can't get into here though since it covers a wide array of radical issues that are outside the confines the rules permit.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

It's a very complicated issue though even when you look at larger groups that profess the greater good and instead are inhibiting the rights of those that have done nothing to them. That debate we really can't get into here though since it covers a wide array of radical issues that are outside the confines the rules permit.

I know, shit, huh... I'd love to talk about it here at the Toyark, but we can't. Oh well.

So yeah, I work with a lot of idiots, and one of them I spent a long time trying to show him that all of his problems he had at work were of his own doing because he was a moron.

Every time I tried to help he turned it around and said that I was over bearing and a bully.

Eventually I realised what I was asking was beyond his capability and that my only choices were fire him or change tactics.

Now I just let him do mostly what he likes and tell him he's doing a good job. He thinks he's great and I don't have to fight with him anymore. His performance even improved.

The reality is; he's still a moron and sux and will never change; even though in his reality he is the back bone of the organization.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

I know, shit, huh... I'd love to talk about it here at the Toyark, but we can't. Oh well.

So yeah, I work with a lot of idiots, and one of them I spent a long time trying to show him that all of his problems he had at work were of his own doing because he was a moron.

Every time I tried to help he turned it around and said that I was over bearing and a bully.

Eventually I realised what I was asking was beyond his capability and that my only choices were fire him or change tactics.

Now I just let him do mostly what he likes and tell him he's doing a good job. He thinks he's great and I don't have to fight with him anymore. His performance even improved.

The reality is; he's still a moron and sux and will never change; even though in his reality he is the back bone of the organization.

I felt the same way everytime I heard fellow classmates whine about how their parents treated them.

I saw it reflecting how their parents cared. They saw it as overbearing, obtrusive, controlling, and whatever else teens/young adults will say about parents without looking at the whys of simple things like curfews and knowing where you're going for safety concerns.

[yourfacehere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

Excerpt from Dinotopia: Journey to Chandara, by James Gurney:



I'm a Liner.

Why rigidly define yourself with such a moniker, when the subject itself doesn't go by such things? I say, I'm a bit of both.

While we're on this subject, have you ever questioned why you can understand speech, why things are defined the way they are right down to the a's and I's, and then suddenly your own words start to fall apart then, after a bit, you're alright again?

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourfacehere

Why rigidly define yourself with such a moniker, when the subject itself doesn't go by such things? I say, I'm a bit of both.

While we're on this subject, have you ever questioned why you can understand speech, why things are defined the way they are right down to the a's and I's, and then suddenly your own words start to fall apart then, after a bit, you're alright again?

Someone might define themselves as a liner because in their eyes they see the liner as the prefferable description and they'd like to think of themselves that way and by extension they'd like others to think of themselves that way as well.

Not Jetty specifically, I don't know him well enough for my mind reading powers to be able to reach out through my computer screen and penetrate his mind.

As to your second question, no I've never wondered that. I have wondered why I was born me and not someone else though, but have come to think that maybe I have been born someone else and that I don't just realise it yet.

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00MTR0N

but in all honesty you all knew the chair was there,to say its not would be denying logic and reality,no?

The purpose of the assignment was to give a rational answer to the proposed question. Proving that it was there was not within the scope of the exercise.

For example, I could see the chair quite clearly so my answer revolved around my sense of sight and the logical deductions based on it. Others said that they couldn't be sure without further information (touching it, for example) and that the eyes are easily fooled. Ask any magician.

But the real test was for us to see what our own personal philosophies were, as a starting point to learning about other philosophies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

I don't think the purpose of the assignment was to prove the chair was really there.

Correct.

Quote:

The purpose of philosophy in general is to examine life and not take things for granted; like that an empty chair is really in a classroom.

It's also a way to view everything from different perspectives and explore them

Quote:

Originally Posted by D00MTR0N

see what I dont understand is why people have to play head games,if you are sitting in a room and someone places a chair in front of you then the chair is in front of you,to deny that is to deny common sense and to me you are arguing non logic,to say its a gloomy day and then someone else argue no its a nice day is one thing for they are both examples of ones own perception,but to argue that a physical object is not there when it is is just being an ass imo.

Well, that's philosophy for you. For some, it's a silly exercise that is ultimately pointless. For others, it helps give insight into their world, or at the very least, something to think about.

It also makes for some interesting bar talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

A chair is a chair, that's just how it is. You can sit on the floor, does it make the floor a chair? Nope, just a good place to sit. Why are we talking about chairs?

All words are essentially meaningless without some context or agreed-upon meaning. "Chair" only has meaning because we associate that word with a particular series of objects. If you were taught your entire life that "chair" meant "tree", then your answer to the question would be very different from someone else's answer.

Here's another question for you: if our knees bent the other way, what would a chair look like?

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

It's also a way to view everything from different perspectives and explore them.

For the student for sure, but not always for the philosopher.

The way they are taught it often seems they have an agenda they are putting forward with their outlooks on life. And where does that leave the student?

Where does that leave the true lover of wisdom? The one so in love they would do anything just to be with it... to touch it if only for just a second?

I found buffet style philosophy to be the most filling.

[yourfacehere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

For the student for sure, but not always for the philosopher.

The way they are taught it often seems they have an agenda they are putting forward with their outlooks on life. And where does that leave the student?

Where does that leave the true lover of wisdom? The one so in love they would do anything just to be with it... to touch it if only for just a second?

I found buffet style philosophy to be the most filling.

A wise man once said, the only wisdom there is is knowing that you know nothing.

Man, it's been quite some time since I've thought about this stuff...thanks for the post, got my mental gears cranking again.

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

I found buffet style philosophy to be the most filling.

Then you would have enjoyed the class. Our professor gave equal time to each of the major philosophies, and tried to at least briefly touch on the minor ones and offshoots.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Not Jetty specifically, I don't know him well enough for my mind reading powers to be able to reach out through my computer screen and penetrate his mind.

That's a'cause Ah wears mah tin foil hat.