[Crazy Jetty]

I put this here, because there's not any really generic/nuetral forum to post something like this in. Everything is specific to one universe, or one genre (TV and Cartoons, or Movies), where this is really intended to fit *everything.* Marvel, DC, Image, Star Trek, He-Man, Disney, what have to.
So mods, if I missed a better location, then please move it. I chose DC General Discussion over Marvel, to give this forum some love.

So, VILLAINS! While I believe the presence of a villain is not nessissary to make a good story, they sure can make a story good!

Who are your favorite villains, and why? And what sort of villain do you like the most, and why?

For me, I think the best kind of villain is the kind who does not believe him/herself evil. He/She is the kind who has a philosophy that is the polar opposite of what we're led to believe in. But I also enjoy a fun and sinister villain as well.

My favorite four-

Magneto:
Because here is a man with strong convictions, and powerful beliefs. He is a man who will resort to brutality if he needs to, but is capable of displaying great, genuine compassion. He's a man who's done bad deeds for the sake of protecting mutants, and is aware those deeds are bad, and gives you the sense that he will punish himself for it, when it's all over.
About the only part of X-Men 3 that I really liked, was the scene where Magneto stops his march across the Golden Gate Bridge, in order to move a car full of innocent humans out of harms way. To me, that sums him up very well.

Sinestro:
While I question his ability to show compassion like Magneto, here's a man who's doing many horrible things, in order to do what he feels is right. A man who believe's in order and peace, and wishes prosperity across a universe that is devoid of crime, and ill deeds. But believes that it can only be accomplished through the manipulation of fear. "Scared straight." This, I think makes him much more complex and interesting, than someone like Joker (Not saying Joker is a bad villain, or a poor character. Just, he's insane and he knows it. He does aweful things and he doesn't care. Not terribly deep, to me. So by compairing Sinestro to Joker, I don't intend to trash another villain I enjoy).

Dr. Doom:
Honestly? Because he's DOOM! I feel he is *the* key villain for the Marvel Universe. Like Sinestro and Magneto, he's not a man who feels he, or his cause are evil. In fact, he rules his country well. He's very complex, and difficult to predict. Sometimes trustworthy, sometimes he's only using you. He seeks no less than global domination, and often times much more than that. But he also intends to insure world peace, he just feels only his way can produce it.
Basically, he's just fun. He's one of the smartest characters in all of fiction, and he knows it.

Megatron, Leader of the Predacons:
Beast era Megatron is quite simply the greatest single villain in all transformer fiction. I love his plotting, I love his quotes. Up until Megatron destroyed G1 Optimus, the best cliffhanger in television was the end of ST:TNG "Best of Both Worlds Part 1." But, the end of The Agenda part III has yet to be topped. Megatron was dark, and oh so sinister. He always had no less than five aces up his sleeve. He was just one of the most fun villains I can think of, and I feel the greatest character in the TF franchise (Not just best villain).
He is why G1 can *never* be better than Beast Wars.

Honorable Mentions-
Thade: From Burton's Planet of the Apes. Say what you will about the movie, he was a damned good villain, and a damned good actor for him. He was what made the movie fun, for me.

Scar: From Lion King. Don't really need to explain why. He was sleezy, scheming, and Jeremy Irons was excellent.

Clayton: Disney's Tarzan. Because he was a realistic villain. He was someone you could run into in every day life. That makes him exceptionally scary to me.

Phaeton: From Exo-Squad. He took over the solar system claiming it's to release the Neo Sapiens from the shackles of their oppression. But in reality he's just a power hungry thug, who'll kill any general that questions him, and replaces them with a clone.

[Nexodusrex]

I have to say Marvel has the best villains.

While its true DC has Batmans Rogues Gallery and Lex Luthor.....thats really all they have when it comes to being noticable. Not many DC villains really cause any major fandom outside of Lex and Batmans Nutty bars. I mean, just look at the Green Lantern movie, they couldnt get any real noticable character by regular casual fan standards

Now Marvel, on the other hand, every film has had some big villain, and every hero out there has a great nasty villain thats instantly noticable to the casual fan. Thor Has Loki, Captain America has the Red Skull, X-men have Magneto and Sabretooth and Apocalypse and even more recognizable villains thanks to its various TV series's. Spiderman has his colorfull rogues gallery which is just as psychotic as Batmans. The Fantastic Four has Dr freakin Doom, the original inspiration for Darth Vader!

Image is hard to say cause to me, its like theres no real major consistancy. their villains arent mainstream enough to really point a finger at an go "OOOOOO I love that guy" to the casual comic fan. Shame, though I freakin hate Savage Dragon.

Disney, I'm gonna say you mean villains in the disney movies. They do steal the spotlight many times, but in the end they almost always die and then thats it. Disney dosent have a superboy to punch their 4th wall to bring them back to life. great memorial villains, but they dont get a real chance to move beyond their first appearance.

So I have to say marvel. In DC, whos the guy you point out who wants to rule or destroy the world/universe. Darkseid or Lex Luthor or maybe Sinestro. its always them. In Marvel, its Doom, Magneto when he's bad, Green Goblin, Loki, Thanos, Zemo, Red Skull, Ultron, the list goes on and on.

Marvel wins. Maybe the DCnU will add a lot more depth to their villains so they can compete. otherwise they will ALWAYS play second fiddle to the heroes.

[Greenskar]

Great thread! Although if it never appeared on the "Latest Discussion" column I would never have seen it. lol

Quote:

For me, I think the best kind of villain is the kind who does not believe him/herself evil. He/She is the kind who has a philosophy that is the polar opposite of what we're led to believe in. But I also enjoy a fun and sinister villain as well.

I couldn't agree more. I forget where I read this or if I was told this, but it was to the effect of, "In times of war, often the biggest oversight from either side of the fight, is that the enemy's perspective of "justice" is somehow not justice." I think that statement somehow relates to your statement regarding the makeup of a good villain.

That said:

Magneto: Here is a villain not without moral values, honor or compassion...as long as you're willing to accept the superiority of the Mutant Race. Magneto is the epitome of self justification. He believes the distance between humanity and mutants is no different from the distance between Man and Ape. He doesn't want to destroy humanity, he wants them to accept their inevitable extinction and enjoy being living relics of the past at the feet of Homo-Superior. He would love to make their extinction as "comfortable as possible" not through killing them, but by simply watching them die off naturally. But those damn Humans, they're stubborn. They won't go down without a fight. Such a futile war they fight.

The fact that he was on the Heroes side of the Secret War speaks volumes of his character depth.

Sinestro: The Greatest Green Lantern ever! (pre Hal Jordan) who actually believes in what the Green Lantern Corps stands for despite starting the Sinestro Corps and waging war against them. He only did it so that the Green Lantern Corp would do what was necessary to strengthen themselves by giving the order to authorize lethal force against their enemies. No one respects an empty threat, and no one understands that better than Sinestro. How can you instill order in the universe amongst the deadliest villains if they have nothing to fear or lose? This is the premise behind Sinestro.

Joker: For all intents and purposes, here's a guy who seemingly lives not to kill his greatest nemesis, Batman, but only to break him. Whether it's the Big screen, cartoon or comics, this psychopath would love nothing more than to see Batman finally break his moral code of honor. Through the years he's gone through the most sinister and sickening of plots to coerce Batman into doing the only thing possible to stop him once and for all...kill him. A Villain who would welcome death to gain the ultimate prize.

Ultron- How do you fault an A.I. who is simply following directive? Organic Life is potentially violent. It is also unpredictable. Therefore if you destroy all organic life, you would theoretically be bringing order and justice to the planet if not the universe. Yet it's not this simplicity that makes him such an amazing villain to me, rather its his analysis of his threats. It's through these analytical perspectives that we see the truth about our heroes. My favorite was during the "Next Avengers" animation where Ultron confronts the son of Captain America and identifies Captain America as "The Most Dangerous Avenger of them all" because he inspires everyone else.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexodusrex

I have to say Marvel has the best villains.

While its true DC has Batmans Rogues Gallery and Lex Luthor.....thats really all they have when it comes to being noticable. Not many DC villains really cause any major fandom outside of Lex and Batmans Nutty bars. I mean, just look at the Green Lantern movie, they couldnt get any real noticable character by regular casual fan standards

Now Marvel, on the other hand, every film has had some big villain, and every hero out there has a great nasty villain thats instantly noticable to the casual fan. Thor Has Loki, Captain America has the Red Skull, X-men have Magneto and Sabretooth and Apocalypse and even more recognizable villains thanks to its various TV series's. Spiderman has his colorfull rogues gallery which is just as psychotic as Batmans. The Fantastic Four has Dr freakin Doom, the original inspiration for Darth Vader!

Image is hard to say cause to me, its like theres no real major consistancy. their villains arent mainstream enough to really point a finger at an go "OOOOOO I love that guy" to the casual comic fan. Shame, though I freakin hate Savage Dragon.

Disney, I'm gonna say you mean villains in the disney movies. They do steal the spotlight many times, but in the end they almost always die and then thats it. Disney dosent have a superboy to punch their 4th wall to bring them back to life. great memorial villains, but they dont get a real chance to move beyond their first appearance.

So I have to say marvel. In DC, whos the guy you point out who wants to rule or destroy the world/universe. Darkseid or Lex Luthor or maybe Sinestro. its always them. In Marvel, its Doom, Magneto when he's bad, Green Goblin, Loki, Thanos, Zemo, Red Skull, Ultron, the list goes on and on.

Marvel wins. Maybe the DCnU will add a lot more depth to their villains so they can compete. otherwise they will ALWAYS play second fiddle to the heroes.

I would have to agree and disagree. A couple years ago, I'd have been behind you 100 percent.
I agree that aside from Batman's Rogues, Marvel definately has the most recognizable a and b list villains. (Though I'd argue with some of their c and below. I think there are quite a few minor DC villains who're more recognizable than the likes of The Wreckers, or some of Iron Man's rogues).
But I feel aside from Marvel's A list villains, most of theirs get very little characterization. When was the last time we saw an issue about why Paste Pot Pete does what he does? Or the last time Rhino was more than just a plot device?
For DC though, I think a lot of the writers put a lot of thought into the motives of their villains. Calculator, Captain Boomerang, Doctor Light, Trickster... all are very minor characters that have been built up, with complex stories. That's not even getting into the Secret Six.

I think Marvel's A and B listers are indeed better, but I think DC has the most interesting minor villains. Marvel has style. DC has substance. Neither are bad qualities, though.

[Do Boy]

Disney, How could anyone want to kill Bambi's mom :'(

[ToyAddict]

One of my favorite villians was Smallville's Lex Luthor. Through the many seasons Michael Rosenbaum was on the show you got to see great character development in him. We got to see him turn ever-so-subtlely to the "dark side." He could always convince you that what he was doing was for the greater good (though it was usually for his own good in his quest for political power). What made him interesting to me was that he didn't always just oppose Clark; often he and Clark had the same goals. They just had great differences in their approach to getting to the desired end.

Honestly it was an epiphany for me as I watched it. It seemed so much like our political system. We've got the two parties that generally (I hope) want the best for our country. But there's very strong opinions about what "best" is, and what to do to make that come about. May sound silly to y'all, but it really opened my eyes to real life--to how people of the "other" political persuasion could come to the conclusions and ideology they have. It actually helped me mature as a person.

(Now don't anyone go start talking politics after this. . .)

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

I put this here, because there's not any really generic/nuetral forum to post something like this in. Everything is specific to one universe, or one genre (TV and Cartoons, or Movies), where this is really intended to fit *everything.* Marvel, DC, Image, Star Trek, He-Man, Disney, what have to.
So mods, if I missed a better location, then please move it. I chose DC General Discussion over Marvel, to give this forum some love.

I would say Off-Topic/General Discussion is the most fitting, since this topic isn't just Marvel- or DC-related, isn't about toys and doesn't fit anywhere else.

Since this is the second time I've had to make this post (thanks IE!), I'll try to make my own comments on the topic brief.

Marvel gets the win for me. Doom, Magneto, Ultron, Venom (Eddie Brock), Carnage (Cletus Kasady), Loki and several others set the bar pretty high.

For DC, I would say Joker, Two-Face and Sinestro are my top picks.

For Disney, I would definitely agree with Scar. I'd also add Jafar from Aladdin and Sark from Tron to the list.

With regards to Transformers, I would also add Animated and TF:Prime's Megatrons next to the BW incarnation. I'd even add G1 Megatron, depending on the fiction. When written correctly, Megatron is a lot like the way Jetty described Doom and Magneto. He feels that Cybertronians have a grand destiny as rulers of the Universe and the only way to achieve that destiny and insure peace for his homeworld (and the Universe) is for him to take over. "Peace through tyranny", indeed.

[Nexodusrex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

Or the last time Rhino was more than just a plot device?

Actually, not even 2 years ago, Marvel did one of the most amazing storys with the Rhino. It was a beautiful story that should have won best book of the year, and they made him a total tragic badass monster. was during the Gauntlet

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexodusrex

Actually, not even 2 years ago, Marvel did one of the most amazing storys with the Rhino. It was a beautiful story that should have won best book of the year, and they made him a total tragic badass monster. was during the Gauntlet

That, I would love to read. I mostly ever see or hear about him being used as nothing more than a thorn in Spidie's side. Show up, smash some things pointlessly, and distract Spidie from the a plot.
Which is sad, to me.

[xhavoc86]

Batman has the best and most iconic villains, hands down. Joker, Poison Ivy, Two Face, Catwoman, Killer Croc, Bane, etc

But collectively as a whole, DC is weaker, Wonder Woman's greatest enemy.... Cheetah? Really? What about Flash villains.... Captain Cold? Mirror Master? Captain Boomerang??? Love those characters, but those names sound lame and their abilities are kinda lacking too, they're very campy lol

Marvel gets it.

[Tiberius]

Marvel gets it for villains. Doom, Ultron, Red Skull, Magneto, Norman Osborn, Loki, Thanos, Apocalypse, and so on.

DC is VERY close with villains like: Darkseid, Doomsday, Joker, Cyborg Superman, Superman Prime, Black Adam, Sinestro, and so on.

It's way to close to call, but Thanos won it for Marvel.

[D00MTR0N]

marvel hands down,really nothing I can say that has not been said.

[MegaPrime33]

I too went with Marvel. I mean Apocalypse, Magneto, Mr. Sinister, Shaw, Doom, Kingpin, and so many others. True, DC may have more iconic, Disney may have the classic villains, but Marvel has them beat.