[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

Thanks.
Though I'd been told Tony Stark did that pretty much on his own, so he could start the BS that lead to the civil war.
(And to be clear, I don't mean "BS" as my personal opinion on the story.)

What? Form the Illuminati, or bouncing Hulk into space?

I thought the decision to banish Hulk was a group concensus after Hulk almost flattened Las Vegas. But I'm a little fuzzy on the details right now, so I could be wrong.

I do know that the group was formed during/as a response to the Kree/Skrull war (via a 2005 retcon, anyway).

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

What? Form the Illuminati, or bouncing Hulk into space?

I thought the decision to banish Hulk was a group concensus after Hulk almost flattened Las Vegas. But I'm a little fuzzy on the details right now, so I could be wrong.

I do know that the group was formed during/as a response to the Kree/Skrull war (via a 2005 retcon, anyway).

Dr. Strange, Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man and Black Bolt collectively decided to banish the Hulk which was the basis of the Planet Hulk and consequential World War Hulk storylines.

Opposed to this plan out of the Illuminati was king namor. Professor X was at the time missing due to the events of Messiah complex however he did state to the Hulk, during WWH, that had he been present he would have supported the decision to ban hulk from earth permanently.

And Jetty, I don't know what you're talking about with regards to wolverine getting away with everything. He gets his ass handed to him quite often actually. If hitting on Mary Jane is the best example you've got that's not a very good one. As for house of M, the whole idea behind it was that scarlet witch used her amplified reality altering powers to create a reality where everyone got everything they desired most in life. Anyone following Wolverine up to that point would know that his erased memories and unknown past is what he longed for most...to know who he was. Unfortunately that allowed him to retain memory of the former reality and make him aware of the fraudulent reality that was the house of m.

My problem with wolverine was more about how writers blatantly exacerbated the extent of his healing factor. He went from being a mutant who could heal life threatening wounds in a matter of days to being able to instantly regenerate tissue in full after Nitros nuclear explosion during their fight.

[Tiberius]

Green, your posts are awsome. Love reading them.

[Crazy Jetty]

@Treble,
Yeah, sorry. I ment I'd been told it was Stark's decision alone to blast Hulk into space, to get him out of the way so he could start the events that led to the civil war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

And Jetty, I don't know what you're talking about with regards to wolverine getting away with everything. He gets his ass handed to him quite often actually. If hitting on Mary Jane is the best example you've got that's not a very good one. As for house of M, the whole idea behind it was that scarlet witch used her amplified reality altering powers to create a reality where everyone got everything they desired most in life. Anyone following Wolverine up to that point would know that his erased memories and unknown past is what he longed for most...to know who he was. Unfortunately that allowed him to retain memory of the former reality and make him aware of the fraudulent reality that was the house of m.

Hitting on MJ isn't that bad. Stabbing Spiderman for getting in his face about it, and not receiving any kind of repremand from the other avengers is what I call "Getting away with it."

And that still doesn't make much sense to me. With all the time travellers and reality hoppers that exist fulltime in 616 (Not to mention aliens), it still makes little to no sense for Wolverine, and Wolverine alone to be the hero of the day. One of many, maybe. One of a group determined to set it right, sure. But as far as I'm concerned, their explination for Wolverine is almost as weak, and almost as poor of a plot than Batman's "death."

Quote:

My problem with wolverine was more about how writers blatantly exacerbated the extent of his healing factor. He went from being a mutant who could heal life threatening wounds in a matter of days to being able to instantly regenerate tissue in full after Nitros nuclear explosion during their fight.

Definately agree with you there. I remember when Magneto yanked his adamantium out. He understandibly flatlined (I think twice even) on their way back to earth.
And I've read older stories where he gets shot a couple times, and it's life threatening.
Now, like you say, things that would have annhialated him at one time, he shrugs off like a sneeze.

Eh. I prefer AoA Sabertooth, anyway. Even when Wolverine was a decent character, AoA Sabertooth was better at it. Easier to sympathize with, and more likable. (IE, he's not an asshole)

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

Eh. I prefer AoA Sabertooth, anyway. Even when Wolverine was a decent character, AoA Sabertooth was better at it. Easier to sympathize with, and more likable. (IE, he's not an asshole)

He was an asshole...but a lovable one.

[ersico]

wolvie, hes a sharp guy
cyclops, he lights up my night but in the end i want a hardbody..........

was that...umm ahahahahahhaah

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

Hitting on MJ isn't that bad. Stabbing Spiderman for getting in his face about it, and not receiving any kind of repremand from the other avengers is what I call "Getting away with it."

And that still doesn't make much sense to me. With all the time travellers and reality hoppers that exist fulltime in 616 (Not to mention aliens), it still makes little to no sense for Wolverine, and Wolverine alone to be the hero of the day. One of many, maybe. One of a group determined to set it right, sure. But as far as I'm concerned, their explination for Wolverine is almost as weak, and almost as poor of a plot than Batman's "death."

Bad writing aside, spiderman should have been stabbed repeatedly for making a deal with the devil to retcon revealing he was peter Parker to the public *cough* one more day *cough*.

And tell me my friend, where does this notion that wolverine saved the day in house of m come from? Has your spite for him convoluted your memory of the fact that it was Layla miller who actually had the power to awaken every other hero? Before she came to Luke cage everyone else thought wolverine was insane. And I wouldn't exactly call the event that resulted in mutants being an endangered species over night "heroic".

But I do get it, Wolverine ain't your cup of Joe. Different strokes for different folks i guess.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Bad writing aside, spiderman should have been stabbed repeatedly for making a deal with the devil to retcon revealing he was peter Parker to the public *cough* one more day *cough*.

And tell me my friend, where does this notion that wolverine saved the day in house of m come from? Has your spite for him convoluted your memory of the fact that it was Layla miller who actually had the power to awaken every other hero? Before she came to Luke cage everyone else thought wolverine was insane. And I wouldn't exactly call the event that resulted in mutants being an endangered species over night "heroic".

But I do get it, Wolverine ain't your cup of Joe. Different strokes for different folks i guess.

House of M was well after I gave up on marvel. Aside from small, fairly unrelated stuff (Ultimate Spiderman, Runaways, Young Avengers), Marvel's general all around bad writing has made me have no desire to ever pick up one of their books.
I'll admit all my information comes from the comic club I attended at the time.
The way they spun it, was pretty much a mirror AoA universe wannabe, with Wolverine playing Bishop's role. (Though, while what you've said contridicts what I was told, it still hasn't done anything to make me rethink it. It still sounds godaweful. Just like everything before, and since)

[Jason Abbadon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

I didn't mean with each other?

Back in the first...oh...two or three years of Wolverine being on the team, they almost threw down ten times at a guess!
Fighting over Jean, over what to d, over killing, over lunch- whatever.
Logan had massive authority issues and no direction in his life, but since getting all his memories back after House of M, he's really matured a lot as a chacater...while Cyke is still a dick.

We love him, but he's still a dick.

WOLVERINE BEST SCENE: Tearing through superheroes and villians alike in Wolverine: Enemy of The State.
Best quote about Wolverine: (Nick Fury to Captain America) "We got our little killing machine back."

CYCLOPS BEST SCENE: smearing a giant Sentinel all over the lawn of the X-Mansion in one blast in Astonishing X-Men!
Best quote about Cyclops: (Logan to Scott) "Sometimes I remember exactly why it is you're in charge."

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

CYCLOPS BEST SCENE: smearing a giant Sentinel all over the lawn of the X-Mansion in one blast in Astonishing X-Men!
Best quote about Cyclops: (Logan to Scott) "Sometimes I remember exactly why it is you're in charge."

Haven't read Schism, although I should. But that a lone makes me Pro Cyclops.

[Jason Abbadon]

Astonishing X-Men was from a few years back- it's so worth reading!
You get to see Kitty beat the piss out of Emma too!

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Haven't read Schism, although I should. But that a lone makes me Pro Cyclops.

You may not like it...I some what didn't...and I'm a big X-Fan...

[Jason Abbadon]

Schism was crap- it was just an excuse to split the teams...which they could have done without such false animosity.

[Tiberius]

Was it better or worse than Fear Itself. If it is worse, well that isn't even possible so it can't be worse.

[Jason Abbadon]

Worse. Not more disapointing, but the expectations were lower too...

Really, they introduced a bunch of ten year olds to beat the X-Men...and they totally do.

Bull. Shit.

Read it at Barnes & Noble or the library or something if you must.
I read it for free (my roommmate bought it) and I still want my money back!

[Tiberius]

I read everything for free. Buying Comics and Toys is to much for my poor ass.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Was it better or worse than Fear Itself. If it is worse, well that isn't even possible so it can't be worse.

worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Jetty

House of M was well after I gave up on marvel. Aside from small, fairly unrelated stuff (Ultimate Spiderman, Runaways, Young Avengers), Marvel's general all around bad writing has made me have no desire to ever pick up one of their books.
I'll admit all my information comes from the comic club I attended at the time.
The way they spun it, was pretty much a mirror AoA universe wannabe, with Wolverine playing Bishop's role. (Though, while what you've said contridicts what I was told, it still hasn't done anything to make me rethink it. It still sounds godaweful. Just like everything before, and since)

I figured as much when the blanket statements started to fly, but its all good. I can respect that you dislike a specific character, but when criticism of events that haven't even been experienced by the reader are made with such conviction it does get frustrating.

It really is unfortunate that you feel so strongly about how bad Marvel stories are as a general belief based on some misguided comments from comic clubs. While I won't entirely discredit that some elements of particular events may be ridiculous or poorly conceived, that isn't to say the entirety of a story was crap.

Some wonderful reads since HOM include: (as Jason pointed out) Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing x-men, Brubaker and Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist, Planet Hulk, (while Jason has his issues with it) Fraction's Invincible Iron Man I enjoyed from 1-34 including the annual, Messiah complex through 2nd coming, X-Force was great, Uncanny X-Force is excellent, the death of captain america thru the trial of captain america and Annihilation vol 1-3, Conquest and the entire Nova series deserves multiple reads IMO.

I'm among the most vocal of the comic threads when it comes to crap stories so you should know I have no clear bias about my choices. Stories I thought were bad include: secret invasion, schism, siege, shadow land (still mad at myself for reading it), recent avengers vol 1&2 that dealt with kang and the hood respectively, curse of the mutants and endangered species are among the stand out crap fests I've read.

Sometimes though, it just comes down to a readers taste in characters and comic brands. This is not an accusation, simply a statement.

[Jason Abbadon]

All the cosmic stuff from Annihilation through Thanos Imperative's ending is freaking fantastic.
Annihilation is the best event ever. Period. And it has none of Marvel's darling characters either!
Annihilation: Conquest kicked a battered universe when it was down (in the teeth) but gave us the Guardians of the Galaxy!
War of Kings had some of the best fights and re-arranged the status quo farther still.
Thanos Imperative put it all on the line and ended with the deaths of Marvel Cosmic's top heroes.

Plus, I own a page from Thanos Imperative: Ignition. The one that became the cover to the second printing!
Not to brag or anything...

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

All the cosmic stuff from Annihilation through Thanos Imperative's ending is freaking fantastic.
Annihilation is the best event ever. Period. And it has none of Marvel's darling characters either!
Annihilation: Conquest kicked a battered universe when it was down (in the teeth) but gave us the Guardians of the Galaxy!
War of Kings had some of the best fights and re-arranged the status quo farther still.
Thanos Imperative put it all on the line and ended with the deaths of Marvel Cosmic's top heroes.

Plus, I own a page from Thanos Imperative: Ignition. The one that became the cover to the second printing!
Not to brag or anything...

I agree, Annihilation, Annihilation: Conquest, War of Kings, Realm of Kings, Thanos Imperative. All amazing. Still makes me want to make a Vulcan custom..

[Jason Abbadon]

That Starkiller guy from SW is a good head for him....his costume is a bitch though.

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

worse.
Messiah complex through 2nd coming, X-Force was great, Uncanny X-Force is excellent.

I think after 2nd Coming it went downhill from there, even the Curse of the Mutants was barely bearable...hopefully it picks back up with AvsX.

[Crazy Jetty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

the blanket statements started to fly, but its all good. I can respect that you dislike a specific character, but when criticism of events that haven't even been experienced by the reader are made with such conviction it does get frustrating.

It really is unfortunate that you feel so strongly about how bad Marvel stories are as a general belief based on some misguided comments from comic clubs. While I won't entirely discredit that some elements of particular events may be ridiculous or poorly conceived, that isn't to say the entirety of a story was crap.

Some wonderful reads since HOM include: (as Jason pointed out) Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing x-men, Brubaker and Fraction's Immortal Iron Fist, Planet Hulk, (while Jason has his issues with it) Fraction's Invincible Iron Man I enjoyed from 1-34 including the annual, Messiah complex through 2nd coming, X-Force was great, Uncanny X-Force is excellent, the death of captain america thru the trial of captain america and Annihilation vol 1-3, Conquest and the entire Nova series deserves multiple reads IMO.

I'm among the most vocal of the comic threads when it comes to crap stories so you should know I have no clear bias about my choices. Stories I thought were bad include: secret invasion, schism, siege, shadow land (still mad at myself for reading it), recent avengers vol 1&2 that dealt with kang and the hood respectively, curse of the mutants and endangered species are among the stand out crap fests I've read.

Sometimes though, it just comes down to a readers taste in characters and comic brands. This is not an accusation, simply a statement.

I used to be big into X-Men. I mean, massively. (Both X-Titles, and Generation X, with some X-Factor and some Excalibre. With Age of Apocalypse being one of my favorite storylines, ever). And I stayed on them like glue. Pissed me off when Jemas cancelled Gen X because "Ultimate X-Men did the same thing with the 'real characters.'" But I still stayed in it.
But when Morrison did his standard mahgic of changing everything just to change everything, that pretty much killed me. I stayed through most of his run, but I dropped it towards the end of his run. Dropped Uncanny, for being mindnumbingly dull at the same time, and dropped X-Treme X-Men for getting stupid.
Since he's dropped off, I've sincearely tried to get back into it. I enjoyed Academy X, until they started screwing around with that after the godaweful "Only 300 mutants in the whole world" storyline.
The rest of the marvel universe sounds just as dreadful. Nothing... absolutely nothing, outside of Planet Hulk sounds the least bit appealing. Most of it is due to Quesada having no business IMO being EiC. At one time I'd thought Bill Jemas was the worst thing that could happen. Until I realized Jemas was protecting us from Quesada.
Marvel is incapable of leaving a good thing alone. If they have something that works, they're incapable of leaving it alone. They either cancel it, or start changing everything about it until it's just like the rest of their shlock (Young Avengers, and Academy X are excellent examples of this).
Ir was about when Morrison took over X-Men is when I jumped ship to DC. Which was also about the time when Geoff Johns started to reinvigorate it.

To this day, Marvel Characters are still my favorites (Though DC has better aliens). They're more colorful, both figuratively and literally. But over the last ten years or so, DC's writing has been way more agreeable. The stuff they've had I didn't like has been nowhere near as bad as Marvel's worst. Save for the Batman's Death storyline. But then That's Morrison, and Morrison should never be allowed to write for stuff that doesn't belong to him.
But I have geuinely tried to get back into Marvel, at several points. Nothing has been even remotely good to me.
The best way for them to turn around is to get off this mega event thing, and let the books stand on their own. (Even DC throws me when they start a new crisis or mega crossover. I still haven't bothered to read Final Crisis)

Hope that helps you understand my place a little more.
I've always respected your opinions on things, even if I may not share them. And I also believe you when you say I've been misinformed, or I've misunderstood things other people have told me.

[Greenskar]

Damn, Jetty...your trials and tribulations through the world of comics nearly shed a tear a few times, lol. Your story is a very familiar one and I can absolutely sympathize with you on the Morrison run. There were some very bad stories. I also acknowledge that you've read many Marvel stories that I haven't and was just never interested in to begin with such as x-academy, young avengers and extreme x. Thankfully, because you're among the voices of the comic book critics of this site I respect and enjoy discussion with...I will not touch them.

Its like that sometimes, with respect to being misinformed, specifically when the people who tell us tend to share our same tastes and opinions with the stories. You want to believe them because you would want them to believe you. Hell, I can point out right now where I'm doing it:

Haven't touched a Hulk Story since Jeff lobe took over after WWH based on friends and reviews that said it was crap. Haven't touched flash point because the staff at my LCS admitted even they weren't certain what the hell actually happened in that story (whatever that means), and I haven't touched new 52 Superman because everyone I know says that Action Comics is where its really at and the other book is trash...*sigh

Am I misinformed? Again, its often a matter of perspective, personal tastes and whether or not a story in spite of everything else really is crap.