[MESH]

Good day Community,

I require help in regards to relating to Transformers, for the past one year I have collected a few Takara masterpieces due to peer influence and honestly it was something I liked as a kid, however I have a tenancy to make up stories or plots when I play with my figures (Im only 35 :P )

My problem with transformers is that I am having hard time relating to the characters, because im not a robot myself, I can relate to Spike witwicky being the human element in the hero's tale, however after speaking to many TF fans, they told me that human element is not essential, this creates a problem for me because I honestly dont know how to relate with the TF anymore.

You see when you look at major heroes such as (Superman, Batman) they usually have a human element, which is the dual identity, the element that creates suspense and add prespectives to the hero instead of being hero the whole time. The problem with TFs is they are robots doing nothing in their tale except being robots, if you look at Gundam for example, it has a human pilot, which gives a human element.

TF dont have that, I have tried focusing my stories on having a better role for Spike Witwicky, being as he is the connection between the human civilization and the bots. But problem is with TF media, comics especially, it focuses alot on the bots and neglects all humman element, Michael Bay films have alot of human element into it, however we all know how that seems to be criticized a lot.

I was hoping someone can add perspective into this matter.


Note: I tried viewing heroes such as Godzilla as a comparison to TF, it seems a bit close in terms of alien creature fighting another while humans sit and watch, but Godzilla is explained as a phenomena of nature that we simply accept, not to mention the perspective comes from the human who know Godzilla (same as the Witwicky example) rather than from the eyes of the huge big lizard - since its unrelatable for us humans.


Thank you .

[Lazer]

I don't know much about the Transformers. I did enjoy the animated movie enough to buy some of the toys from that era. What I liked about the movie though had a lot to do with the human elements the Transformers were able to convey towards the humans that the humans were genuinely powerless against (at least until they got their own exosuits).

The father and son mentor-ship between Kup and Hotrod is still at the core of that movie and progressing Hotrod into a leader of sorts, giving a somewhat useless hothead some foresight and accountability not to forget courage and responsibility (keeping the human characters alive).

Of course we all saw that sort of thing totally shifted away from Kup and Hotrod when the live action movies came out. Almost all of the tug and turmoil lies on Optimus' shoulders alone, and to some extent that secret government agency who enable the autobots to even pick sides in an all out alien battle...yes I have come to a crossroad at which point after 30 years they have been relegated to Aliens instead of just robots. This doesn't have to be the only way to relate to the characters, but their sentient existence is only possible through their life force of which is very limited after the destruction of their home world and almost their entire "race?"...

Transformers didn't stick with me very long after the animated movie craze faded away. I didn't complain when the live action movies started changing the main character archetypes around because I always had the animated movie to look back to as the source of why I enjoy them at all. I only own two Transformer figures and wouldn't you guess they're the newer incarnations of Kup and Hotrod (Rodimus) which I leave in vehicle mode to remind me that that's when Kup is teaching Hotrod a lesson of some sort.

[MESH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazer

I don't know much about the Transformers. I did enjoy the animated movie enough to buy some of the toys from that era. What I liked about the movie though had a lot to do with the human elements the Transformers were able to convey towards the humans that the humans were genuinely powerless against (at least until they got their own exosuits).

The father and son mentor-ship between Kup and Hotrod is still at the core of that movie and progressing Hotrod into a leader of sorts, giving a somewhat useless hothead some foresight and accountability not to forget courage and responsibility (keeping the human characters alive).

Of course we all saw that sort of thing totally shifted away from Kup and Hotrod when the live action movies came out. Almost all of the tug and turmoil lies on Optimus' shoulders alone, and to some extent that secret government agency who enable the autobots to even pick sides in an all out alien battle...yes I have come to a crossroad at which point after 30 years they have been relegated to Aliens instead of just robots. This doesn't have to be the only way to relate to the characters, but their sentient existence is only possible through their life force of which is very limited after the destruction of their home world and almost their entire "race?"...

Transformers didn't stick with me very long after the animated movie craze faded away. I didn't complain when the live action movies started changing the main character archetypes around because I always had the animated movie to look back to as the source of why I enjoy them at all. I only own two Transformer figures and wouldn't you guess they're the newer incarnations of Kup and Hotrod (Rodimus) which I leave in vehicle mode to remind me that that's when Kup is teaching Hotrod a lesson of some sort.

Thanks for posting,

But thats the thing , Kup and Hotrod are just robots, me personally I cannot relate to much to that because im human and they are not.

I dont think the writer ever focused on the angle of perception here, I was told from a fan that during the early G1 time , there was alot of interactiona and role for the humans, however after few seasons that changed and they started shifting focus more on the bots.

I guess there is no real answer to that, might as well just sell my TF figures and focus on more developed characters.

[RamenRider]

Transformers are written as metal humans who can transform anyways, the blockade is only in your head. A Transformer is basically any other alien in any sci-fi universe ever which are written with a humanoid appearance and nature in mind. Like Mr. Spock. You can relate to Mr. Spock fom Star Trek right? Well there you go, the Decepticon Shockwave is an evil Spock. That’s not even a joke, he has been written to be exactly that: An evil Mr. Spock. In the comics at least, in the cartoon he’s a useless tool

Most Transformers (maybe except monster bots, and even those do in some ways) act like a human, so relate to that. Imagine them as superheroes whose ability is to change their form. But they are also aliens, like Superman, so they do things a bit different. They don’t eat or drink, they consume Energon. They don’t sleep, they go in repair mode. They don’t die when they’re blown apart, you can repair them. And so on and so forth.

I really have no problem relating to Transformers, and with that mindset neither should you. They are just big, transforming metal humans. Also, relating / imagining being someone else who’s totally different from you is where the real fun begins. You can be a guy who dresses up as a bat every night, but you could also be a giant robot who can transform at will. And it doesn’t stop there, every Transformer is different. Optimus Prime is the brilliant leader with a little bit of a stiff yet friendly nature, Grimlock is the caveman who thinks a bit simpler but has a strange sense for humor, Megatron is a former activist who tried to change the corrupt government of Cybertron peacefully, failed and used force instead which corrupted him, Starscream is a egomaniac, (self proclaimed) military genius and a traitor who tries to become the Decepticon leader wherever he can. (I use my own headcanon for these, created from many different source materials over the years, but that should give you an idea how you could interpret these characters)

All of them are so different and can be used in so many story-driven ways that you can never run out of ideas what these guys could do. Especially if you add their ability to transform. You can have them as jets fighting air battles, cars driving races, or even as dinosaurs chomping fools.

Also because of the fast lore within the universe, there are countless variations to them. They are individuals, and much like humans they can be totally different things. Sixshot for example is a ninja. Yes you heard that right. He’s a ninja from the Six-Clan, whose members all have six different forms. He uses ninjitsu to fight: He creates illusions as doubles, can vanish into thin air, and uses his six modes to further strengthen his battle capabilities. Isn’t that awesome?

They also have pirates, doctors, adventurers, scientists, gangsters, and so on. There are countless variations, much like with human characters. And in most cases, them being able to transform is not what makes them different, it’s what makes them better. They can transform into vehicles or animals which suit their type.

If you get bored with a superhero, you look for a different one. If you get bored with a Transformer, you look for a different one. Much like superheroes (or villains) there are so many different characters that you’ll never get bored. Of course they share a gimmick, but that makes them all the more fascinating, especially since their gimmick varies. There are triple changers who have two alternate modes, giant city bots, combiners, Headmasters, Powermasters, Pretenders and so much more. And most of them are still only giant metal humans, so they are written as such.

And then there are tons of different incarnations. You don’t like planes or cars? Well there’s Beast Wars, where the robots are basically build like a Terminator: Robots with synthetic flesh, muscles, skin, fur, claws etc. They are more than your regular Transformer since they feature an animalistic side, yet with the intelligence of a human like being. Which brings entirely new possibilities and problems.

You see, they are quite easy to relate to once you drop the idea of what you think a robot is. These are not like the robots you know, they are living beings, but instead of flesh and blood they have metal and Energon. They still feel like a human would, only that they of course have a different look on what "life" means, but that only makes them more interesting than a regular human hero.

So get rid of your view of a robot and enjoy Transformers for what they are and relate to them as persons, not beings. Later on you will figure out how a Transformer would think anyways

[MESH]

Thanks for your explanation. - so basically linking transformers to Godzilla is not a bright idea - maybe something like the ninja turtles is better.

I was told that Spike Witwicky plays the same role as April Oneil.

The problem is if I have to go through this concept - it means I have to find an Orion pax figure - since Optimus is the leader - and Orion is the origin of this crazed war between two faction - I have to push myself to buy an Orion pax if I will continue loving TF.

Having the basic bots without the characters from their origin is incomplete experience.

[RamenRider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

Thanks for your explanation. - so basically linking transformers to Godzilla is not a bright idea - maybe something like the ninja turtles is better.

Well the Ninja Turtles are living and feeling persons too so that's not wrong. But you could also compare Tranformers to He-Man or every other old-school franchise which deals with heroes fighting against evil. Transformers are just another alien species, very much human in appearance (most of the time) and they act similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

I was told that Spike Witwicky plays the same role as April Oneil.

The lame human character who’s only there so that they can ask questions in order for the protagonists to do some explaining as in what they’re doing? And to get in trouble so they need to be saved? Yeah that sounds about right

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

The problem is if I have to go through this concept - it means I have to find an Orion pax figure - since Optimus is the leader - and Orion is the origin of this crazed war between two faction - I have to push myself to buy an Orion pax if I will continue loving TF.

I think you’re setting yourself way too many limits buddy. I remember the feeling, as a kid I used to not allow myself to enjoy certain characters if I didn’t have every possible stage of their live as an action figure, but that's really, really boring.

For one, maybe some stages don’t exist. You buy Masterpiece TF’s, right? Well there is no MP Orion Pax. Might never happen. I mean it will probably happen once Kup is done but no one knows when that will happen.

Second, you should buy and enjoy what you want. You need no rules, except maybe keep an eye on your family, work and your bank account But to the point: You like Galvatron but not Megatron? Buy Galvatron, ignore Megatron. I know it’s hard and sounds antagonizing if a stranger says it but try to get rid of your rules man. This is your hobby, not an exercise. If you like collecting alter-ego’s or origin versions, buy them if they’re available. But stop restricting yourself and ignore great figures just because not every stage of their live exists in action figure form.

Also, mild correction on the lore, technically Megatron started all this shit, Orion Pax just fought back

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

Having the basic bots without the characters from their origin is incomplete experience.

Nah man, it’s awesome. Try to enjoy what you get, without this "basic bots" thinking. You need no Orion Pax to enjoy an Optimus Prime. Hell, most people don’t even know Orion Pax these days anymore. And he was like in what, 2-3 episodes of the original cartoon maybe?

[Primacron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamenRider

Transformers are written as metal humans who can transform anyways, the blockade is only in your head. A Transformer is basically any other alien in any sci-fi universe ever which are written with a humanoid appearance and nature in mind.

This!

If you fancied reading some comics then I can highly recommend More than Meets the Eye Volume 1, the war is over and a bunch of transformers go on a mission to find some of their ancestors. It's like a cross between Red Dwarf and Firefly with no humans, for the first time in my experience, the transformers are really written in a complex and compelling way.

[Primacron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamenRider

Second, you should buy and enjoy what you want. You need no rules, except maybe keep an eye on your family, work and your bank account

Also this!

[MESH]

I wonder if humanity were mindless creatures born to serve a certain creator only to revolt after gaining awareness and building their own societies - reminds me of Assassins creed dogma.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

I wonder if humanity were mindless creatures born to serve a certain creator only to revolt after gaining awareness and building their own societies - reminds me of Assassins creed dogma.

Well, much of the lore is different between universes on transformers.

In the aligned continuity, the basis is on Allspark and primus, and sentience/'humanity' was there at 'birth'.

With some of the offshoots of aligned continuity, it was a caste system. Not much removed from similar aspects of similar highborn concepts in fantasy literature and aspects from some cultures.

In G1 cartoon continuity, it was workers and military. With military seeking universal domination, but workers wanting freedom to be who they are. And a civil war erupting because workers had to fight to maintain that freedom.

In Marvel continuity, it varies per writer. And IDW continuity is closer to aligned continuity.

As others said though, you're thinking of it too much as manufactured products given an AI. Cybertronian life forms are more like living robots. The sentience aspect is the same as humans, but only imposed on a different kind of life form instead of how we view carbon based life forms like we are.

They are prone to the same emotions as humans or any alien race really. Same concepts and goals, same emotions, same problems.

It's the same as looking at it from any anthromorphized perspective. TMNT, thundercats, he-man, Gumball, whatever. The outer shell may be different, but the core components are still based in the same aspects of humans. Anxieties, fears, hopes, dreams, goals, passions, intelligence, and circumstances.

From those core aspects, then you factor in personality aspects, how they achieve those things, and what's unique to their species for how they approach things. How does their sensory input vary. Like for example, a werewolf may have an increased sense of smell and hearing. A cybertronian may have larger ranges of sight than simple normal human optical input. They may have easier reaches to things like night vision or thermal vision, zooming capabilities, or even trajectory calculations. These aspects are innate though and as diverse as say humans are to math and science.

The only limit is in how you approach it or think of it. If you think of them as unfeeling cold alien machines, then yeah, it's harder to relate to them, but if you see them for the 'human' universal aspects of sentient life forms, then you can start seeing how much the same they are.

So yeah, don't think of them as Godzilla which is more animal instincts centered, and think of them more as humans that have precision capabilities. They aren't lumbering slow giants either. They can be as precise as ballet dancers and gymnasts, but also do vary as much as people do, and some areas are lumbering giants. Combiners for example, are lumbering giant bruiser class personas. But individually, they are more like people in their movements and personas and variations or even clumsiness aspects or obliviousness.

Think less hollywood's trend of adding a human component for the entry way, and think more like Doctor Who's "we're all the same even if the outer shell is different." Or think more towards star wars as an example. The outer guiding of circumstance are metaphors to similar everyday concepts across our globe.

Spike Witwicky worked as an entry-way in G1 because he was the same as the autobots. He was a construction worker pulled into this war. Same as optimus prime/orion pax was a dock worker pulled into a war. So as an entry-way, Spike and Sparkplug were there to show how much of the same they were to the Autobots. They were a view to show how related the concepts were, though yes acted as a form of audience entry point, but not so much on the human element as a universal element. This is why it's removed heavily in season 3 and even some in season 2. We start seeing more of how 'human' concepts are universal. Space casinos and bounty hunters and more. But at the end of G1 we see that turnaround. That construction worker that was pulled into a war not of his making is now one of the most powerful autobots seeking peace and an end to fighting so he can rest. So essentially, the metaphor is blue collar everyman pulled into becoming a larger than life leader for freedom.

In more recent alterings, Orion was a librarian, a person of learning, pulled into a war when all he wanted before was to start change in the caste system for larger freedom of choice because he saw something that was unfair in the dynamic and treatment of others.

Movie universe we've never gotten a clear depiction of the origin of the war on screen. Outside material varies too much to say which is accurate.

Hope that helps. But that's the main thing you need to look at. The metaphor and not so much the literal. Once you get that metaphor usage, you can expand to large degrees of vast areas, because the metaphor will create the relation point for you to understand it.

[Teradragon]

Imagination solves everything, usually I simply come up with some strange history for them. The bad thing is that Hasbro has abused and released hundreds of thousands of figures without any background at all. Some time they can look cold, and always robots are harder to give personality to them, but you have to think that with the all-spark giving them life they just like any other life form in the universe.

The old Marvel comics and the Transformers Prime are in my opinion the best rendition of the traditional characters.

[Pravus Prime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

My problem with transformers is that I am having hard time relating to the characters, because im not a robot myself, I can relate to Spike witwicky being the human element in the hero's tale, however after speaking to many TF fans, they told me that human element is not essential, this creates a problem for me because I honestly dont know how to relate with the TF anymore.

You see when you look at major heroes such as (Superman, Batman) they usually have a human element, which is the dual identity, the element that creates suspense and add prespectives to the hero instead of being hero the whole time. The problem with TFs is they are robots doing nothing in their tale except being robots, if you look at Gundam for example, it has a human pilot, which gives a human element.

...
I was hoping someone can add perspective into this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

The problem is if I have to go through this concept - it means I have to find an Orion pax figure - since Optimus is the leader - and Orion is the origin of this crazed war between two faction - I have to push myself to buy an Orion pax if I will continue loving TF.

Having the basic bots without the characters from their origin is incomplete experience.

I really thought I could help when I clicked on this thread, but it seems I cannot. I don't get it, the problem that you have or even why you somehow made the jump to requiring an Orion Pax.

The closest it seems I can get to is that you seem to have a very superficial understanding of the characters and the dynamics that Transformers can bring. Try reading the full original profiles for the characters, the very first idea of them as fictional beings that was used to write the comics and the cartoon as an original guide and their truncated biographies on the back of the box as part of the character profiles. These aren't unfeeling robots going beep boop, they're aliens who are mechanical instead of biological, but still have some very human behaviors. Can you not relate to The Terminator or Data from Star Trek either? Or even a smaller step, how about Robocop? To not be able to understand them at all?

I would also suggest reading the IDW comic series More Than Meets the Eye. If you still can't find any bot to be relatable, I think the problem is something you'll need to find on your own.

[MESH]

SOrry guys - im kind of tangled at work - but look at this beautifull figure - this is the hero before he become a hero.

By the way, I send that Optimus Prime's character resembles alot of King Arthur and knights of the roundtable.

I just dont know why some TF fans are so indifferent about having Orion Pax as a mainstream figure since this is where the hero's trail started for the autobots ,in a sort of way.

[RamenRider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

I just dont know why some TF fans are so indifferent about having Orion Pax as a mainstream figure since this is where the hero's trail started for the autobots ,in a sort of way.

Because it heavily depends on continuity. G1 is actually the only time where Optimus Prime was created out of a regular Transformer who was upgraded. In most other continuities Orion Pax just flat out doesn't exist, Optimus Prime was always Optimus Prime (or just "Optimus" until he became a Prime), and in the only other recent continuity I know where Orion Pax existed he was just a disguise for Optimus who chose to live among the other Transformers until Megatron and his Decepticons rose to power which forced him to become Optimus Prime once more.

You will still get your Orion Pax figures every now and then but obviously not in lineups where the character never existed.

[MESH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamenRider

Because it heavily depends on continuity. G1 is actually the only time where Optimus Prime was created out of a regular Transformer who was upgraded. In most other continuities Orion Pax just flat out doesn't exist, Optimus Prime was always Optimus Prime (or just "Optimus" until he became a Prime), and in the only other recent continuity I know where Orion Pax existed he was just a disguise for Optimus who chose to live among the other Transformers until Megatron and his Decepticons rose to power which forced him to become Optimus Prime once more.

You will still get your Orion Pax figures every now and then but obviously not in lineups where the character never existed.

Can you guide me to Wikis or plots where Optimus was optimus without beings Orion ?

[Pravus Prime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

Can you guide me to Wikis or plots where Optimus was optimus without beings Orion ?

Given the franchise history and it's many, many incarnations, fictional multiverses, and more, it's far, far easier to list the ones that has an Orion Pax:

• Generation 1 Cartoon
• IDW Current Comics G1 Comic Continuity
• Wings Universe Comics
• Aligned*

*The Video Games are considered officially to be part of Aligned, but no one told the makers that and they created Aligned after War For Cybertron came out anyway. Additionally the Prime TV series has officially and within the story went out of their way not to tie in to the games, so for this list and topic, they don't count and are listed below.

Every other fiction has an Optimus who was never Orion Pax first. Some, but far from all, include:

• Marvel G1 Comics
• Dreamwave G1 Comics (His pre-Optimus Prime form was called Optronix)
• Beast Wars/Machines/II/Neo
• Robots in Disguise (the first one)
• Armada (Cartoon, Comics, Games), Energon (Cartoon and Comics), Cybertron
• Alternity*, Alternators, Binaltech**
• Animated
• The Live Action Movies
• War For Cybertron, Fall of Cybertron, Rise of the Dark Spark Video Games.
• Cloud and Transtech

*Due to the nature of Alternity, some versions of Convoy was likely Orion Pax within the Alternity collective, but not all.

**Due to the very odd nature of Binaltechs story structure, where and how it connects to the original G1 is a bit odd, as sometimes they pull from the comics (No Pax), other times the cartoon (Pax), and the story itself is a major splinter away from events of either continuity and has Time Travel in it, but since Optimus Prime is largely dead in it and other factors at play, at best it's ambiguous.

And the Wiki you'll want to use is Transformers Wiki - TFWiki.net

The Transformers franchise uses a multiverse approach, similar to Marvel's in some ways, with a rather complete universal stream system to indicate which fiction characters can come from and to help keep all these different incarnations and universes straight. Even in the universes with an Orion Pax, his background is far from the same; in Aligned, he's one of the 13 Primes who made a sacrifice, in G1 he was a dock worker. In IDW he was the equivalent of a police officer who was moved after reading Megatrons book and seeing police corruption. He's also been a librarian. So even who Orion Pax is varies. Four incarnations of Orion Pax with four different origin stories. Just as the part Prime in a name; sometimes it's part of a name, sometimes it's a rank, and sometimes it indicates a Matrix bearer. It's not always the same.

[TimothyR]

A lot of transformers fans, who started with G1 when they were kids grew up with Optimus.. Orion Pax was only in like one or two episodes "war dawn"? Or something like it.

Anyways, the character we knew was Optimus Prime, and it's not like the series began with that episode.

[Snowflakian]

Like others said it varies per continuity. Like DC, Marvel, and other properties, Transformers is a multiverse.

There's Orion Pax for G1 cartoon, which was really only "War Dawn" in season 2, and made a cameo in Five Faces of Darkness in season 3. And he's also used in the aligned continuity of books to game. At least his progression of Orion to Optimus, and then later becoming a Prime. Games are self-contained. Prime series is more from the novels. Though really, continuity is only maintained to the medium itself. Movie is movie. Toon is toon. Comic is comic. There's some overlap, but rarely any consistency to those overlaps.

Optomitrix which was various continuities also.

And then the always was Optimus.

So it really depends on which universe you adhere too.

I stick to a more head cannon version that's an aligned G1-animes-beast wars, with expanded IDW material like Windblade/city speakers etc.

It's really all in how you, the fan/purchaser of the material, decides what works for your collection or how you play. If you're not talking confined continuity, which each medium has to have because of the very nature of the medium it is, there really is no limits to how you can head cannon whatever your collection is.

Hasbro tries to nod all mediums and forays. Combiner Wars & Titans Return especially is scattered nods of IDW influenced but heavy on the Season 2, season 3/4 and TFTM with some added anime nods too like Scramble City and Headmasters, with probably Masterforce coming next too.

Hasbro's main goal right now as a character company is to get merchandise out of eventually every character, and that's a long list of characters.

[bmorr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MESH

Thanks for your explanation. - so basically linking transformers to Godzilla is not a bright idea - maybe something like the ninja turtles is better.

I was told that Spike Witwicky plays the same role as April Oneil.

The problem is if I have to go through this concept - it means I have to find an Orion pax figure - since Optimus is the leader - and Orion is the origin of this crazed war between two faction - I have to push myself to buy an Orion pax if I will continue loving TF.

Having the basic bots without the characters from their origin is incomplete experience.

they do have an orion pax figure

https://www.amazon.com/Transformers-.../dp/B00CX5XCPU