[FrankCastle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

His old self maybe. But if you've been following his recent character development from schism through the recent and wonderful wolverine and the X-men 1-9 his willingness to kill a kid, regardless of how bad the threat is completely out of his current character.

Still don't believe me? Then I offer you this comic fact: Wolverine couldn't even kill the Child Apocalypse because he thought maybe he could be raised to be good. FRIGGIN Apocalypse! So Fantomex took care of business even though he found a way around it (cloned child apocalypse) and now kid apocalypse is part of Logan's new school in spite of a precognition (or memory) from deathlok that shows him still become evil Apocalypse.

So he'll trust a would be apocalypse but kill the only kid who could probably control the Phoenix somehow? sorry, that's completely out of character, Marvel.

I just got through reading the prequel to and the story for Schism and I totally agree. In Schism we saw Cyclops as a general type willing to lay down the lives of anyone to preserve his race. Wolvie was the 'reasoning' figure in that story and took the humanity side of the war.

Now that being said I think Wolvie willing to destroy Hope to save the world is actually perfect. He realizes, and has been mentally preparing for (what now 20 years our time) the return of the Phoenix and he knows he's the only one that can destroy her thanks to his healing factor. He hates the Phoenix. It took away someone he truly loved. So if it comes down to killing a teenager he's purposely not come attached to I say it works perfectly.

[bmorr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodus

I get both, what's up?

if anything interesting or important happens, mind posting a few sentences on each?

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankCastle

I just got through reading the prequel to and the story for Schism and I totally agree. In Schism we saw Cyclops as a general type willing to lay down the lives of anyone to preserve his race. Wolvie was the 'reasoning' figure in that story and took the humanity side of the war.

Now that being said I think Wolvie willing to destroy Hope to save the world is actually perfect. He realizes, and has been mentally preparing for (what now 20 years our time) the return of the Phoenix and he knows he's the only one that can destroy her thanks to his healing factor. He hates the Phoenix. It took away someone he truly loved. So if it comes down to killing a teenager he's purposely not come attached to I say it works perfectly.

Actually, if Hope really is the true host of the Phoenix, Wolverine can't kill her (more on that later)...

...You know what I don't understand? The Phoenix force is destroying planet after planet on its way to Earth...without Hope Summers or any other host support. What's to stop it from destroying Earth if it doesn't get its host? Hope said it best during Uncanny X-Men #11 when she said, (about wolverine) "we agreed that if it all went bad, he should kill me. I told him to be sure. But it hasn't gone bad. Why doesn't anybody trust me?"

And she's right in that context. In the old Dark Phoenix saga Jean was already possessed by the force when she was taken out. Wolverine is jumping the gun big time. He wouldn't even let Blade kill his beloved Jubilee after she became a Vampire (nor would he even entertain the thought of taking Blade's advice to kill her himself). Granted that's not as threatening as a Phoenix it just goes to show how selective in who he's willing to kill and for what reason he is being written.

And I'm sorry but if you gave kid apocalypse a chance you can't tell me you don't give Hope the benefit of the doubt when the Phoenix force is already destroying everything in its path without her. Jean kept it in check long enough to allow herself to be taken out to stop the Phoenix (disintegrated herself by detonating some weapon while on the moon from what i remember). Seems to be the only thing that works. Not to mention that during Morrison's run, Wolverine and Jean were flung jnto the sun, wolverine killed Jean to save her feom suffering...guess what happened? It fully activated her Phoenix Force and ressurected her. It took an electromagnetic pulse from Magneto to kill her. Nice job forgetting that part Logan, after 20 some yrs of mental preparation

Now I don't want people to assume this means I'm not enjoying the event, I just wanted to acknowledge that while this maybe the equivalent of a typical summer popcorn flick it sucks to see the characters taken out of character from the development seen in their solo or team books just for the sake of the event.

[FrankCastle]

I still feel he's feeling no remorse because it's the Phoenix that ultimately killed Jean. Jubilee didn't kill a woman he loved.

[Zeruel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Actually, if Hope really is the true host of the Phoenix, Wolverine can't kill her (more on that later)...

...You know what I don't understand? The Phoenix force is destroying planet after planet on its way to Earth...without Hope Summers or any other host support. What's to stop it from destroying Earth if it doesn't get its host? Hope said it best during Uncanny X-Men #11 when she said, (about wolverine) "we agreed that if it all went bad, he should kill me. I told him to be sure. But it hasn't gone bad. Why doesn't anybody trust me?"

And she's right in that context. In the old Dark Phoenix saga Jean was already possessed by the force when she was taken out. Wolverine is jumping the gun big time. He wouldn't even let Blade kill his beloved Jubilee after she became a Vampire (nor would he even entertain the thought of taking Blade's advice to kill her himself). Granted that's not as threatening as a Phoenix it just goes to show how selective in who he's willing to kill and for what reason he is being written.

And I'm sorry but if you gave kid apocalypse a chance you can't tell me you don't give Hope the benefit of the doubt when the Phoenix force is already destroying everything in its path without her. Jean kept it in check long enough to allow herself to be taken out to stop the Phoenix (disintegrated herself by detonating some weapon while on the moon from what i remember). Seems to be the only thing that works. Not to mention that during Morrison's run, Wolverine and Jean were flung jnto the sun, wolverine killed Jean to save her feom suffering...guess what happened? It fully activated her Phoenix Force and ressurected her. It took an electromagnetic pulse from Magneto to kill her. Nice job forgetting that part Logan, after 20 some yrs of mental preparation

Now I don't want people to assume this means I'm not enjoying the event, I just wanted to acknowledge that while this maybe the equivalent of a typical summer popcorn flick it sucks to see the characters taken out of character from the development seen in their solo or team books just for the sake of the event.

I think the idea is that the Avengers want to take her off earth because (ideally) the pheonix force would change course to follow her.

And I think the problem is that Wolverine's an established enough character that writers can fall back on outdated characterizations and most of us don't even know the difference. As much as I love the current X-force, it was strange that Wolvie was doing all that while chastizing Cyke for having a similar philosophy. I guess the difference was that Cyke was forcing the kids into it, and he was only taking the willing?

I kinda lost hope for this event when ***SPOILERS**** Cap decided the only way to discipline Wolverine was to jump him and throw him out of a plane, not like anyone had been acting rationally uptil then anyway....

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankCastle

I still feel he's feeling no remorse because it's the Phoenix that ultimately killed Jean. Jubilee didn't kill a woman he loved.

Dude do you know how many women Wolverine has loved over the years? Sabertooth has scarred wolverine more than the Phoenix ever has.

My point is they're making wolverine tactless in this event. Killing hope before the Phoenix gets there is obviously not the best option when the Phoenix can still destroy your planet anyway. Avengers have the right idea if moving the host away from earth is in fact their plan.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeruel

I think the idea is that the Avengers want to take her off earth because (ideally) the pheonix force would change course to follow her.

And I think the problem is that Wolverine's an established enough character that writers can fall back on outdated characterizations and most of us don't even know the difference. As much as I love the current X-force, it was strange that Wolvie was doing all that while chastizing Cyke for having a similar philosophy. I guess the difference was that Cyke was forcing the kids into it, and he was only taking the willing?

I kinda lost hope for this event when ***SPOILERS**** Cap decided the only way to discipline Wolverine was to jump him and throw him out of a plane, not like anyone had been acting rationally uptil then anyway....

Completely agree with everything you just said. Especially the Avengers' plan to have the host removed from Earth to spare the planet.

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmorr

if anything interesting or important happens, mind posting a few sentences on each?

Both have nothing relevant to AVX yet just individual stories, but the next issues for both brings them into the fold. WATX #9 has Wolvy joining up with the Avenger's and putting the kids in safe mode that's about it with those 2 books.

As for Wolvy killing Hope I hit up Marvel.com and well here's kind of a spoiler.
Avengers VS X-Men (2012) #4 | Comic Books | Comics | Marvel.com

[FrankCastle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

Dude do you know how many women Wolverine has loved over the years? Sabertooth has scarred wolverine more than the Phoenix ever has.

My point is they're making wolverine tactless in this event. Killing hope before the Phoenix gets there is obviously not the best option when the Phoenix can still destroy your planet anyway. Avengers have the right idea if moving the host away from earth is in fact their plan.

Case in point....

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankCastle

Case in point....

Ya but Sabretooth has always been a ruthless killer, while the Phoenix host is a bit different.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodus

Both have nothing relevant to AVX yet just individual stories, but the next issues for both brings them into the fold. WATX #9 has Wolvy joining up with the Avenger's and putting the kids in safe mode that's about it with those 2 books.

As for Wolvy killing Hope I hit up Marvel.com and well here's kind of a spoiler.
Avengers VS X-Men (2012) #4 | Comic Books | Comics | Marvel.com

Yeah I saw that preview on Newsarama.com. I wasn't sure how to interpret it. A suicide mission for her or for Wolverine? Since Wolverine wants her dead anyway why would she need to pitch killing herself? Lol, guess we'll find out.

Again this just follows the trend of Phoenix host killing themselves to end the threat if it is her intention. The one AvX tie in that has been the most interesting so far is New Avengers. Seriously I can't wait to see what her tie into Kun Lun and her destiny to become the next Iron Fist has to do with the Phoenix!

[FrankCastle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodus

Ya but Sabretooth has always been a ruthless killer, while the Phoenix host is a bit different.

My point is he said that Sabretooth scarred him more than Phoenix. I'm agreeing with that point and showing how he handled him. His own brother mind you.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankCastle

Case in point....

I loved that story actually. Thanks for posting that pic!.

I will however use your jubilee comment against you. Hope hasn't killed anyone he loved either. Like she said things haven't got bad yet. Jean, accomplished many good deeds with the Phoenix force before she turned Dark Phoenix. Wolverine couldn't kill Jean either even when he tried.

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankCastle

My point is he said that Sabretooth scarred him more than Phoenix. I'm agreeing with that point and showing how he handled him. His own brother mind you.

Ah my bad, yup you are correct!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

I loved that story actually. Thanks for posting that pic!.

Very great story indeed, love how they brought in all the feral mutants as well, although sucks that they killed half of them off though.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodus

Ah my bad, yup you are correct!

Very great story indeed, love how they brought in all the feral mutants as well, although sucks that they killed half of them off though.

I know, right?

I haven't been keeping up with his recent solo run, though, where Sabertooth is supposed to have been brought back.

Exodus/FrankCastle,

Have either of you read that arc? Was it decent?

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenskar

I know, right?

I haven't been keeping up with his recent solo run, though, where Sabertooth is supposed to have been brought back.

Exodus/FrankCastle,

Have either of you read that arc? Was it decent?

Yup reading it. Not bad, basically The Hand brought him and Mystique back to life and has the new Silver Samurai in it which is the Silver Samurai's son who I think doesn't really make a good new version, his armor is cool though. Also Wolvy's new gf breaks up with him, cause Mystique screwed him over "literally" and sent evidence to her.

The next Wolvy solo run is kind of crappy, but I may trade it up after I've done reading it to see if it's worthy to keep.

On a side note, I just realize, what's with Marvel making "kids" villains these days? WATX have the "Hellfire Kids" and now new Silver Samurai is a kid. Sheesh.

[Jason Abbadon]

Theres so much bullshit not said in this whole jerky event though- Why would Cyclops not just agree to have the X-Men go along into space with the Avengers and, you know...protect the world?

And why doesn't Wolverine ask Rachel to intercept the Phionex? It's no stranger to her- or call up Korvis and the Cucoos and try to split the force into something managable?

Again, some contrived plot comes before writing characters as they've been established for decades- Cyclop's behavior is as stubborn and stupid as Steve and Tont's in Civil War.
Now in X-Men, Cyclops is taking the coward's route by slandering the Avengers in some media campaign?
Weak.

I tuly hope this all ends with The Illumaniti getting together and useing their Gems to whack that birdy outta the sky and Professor X walking up and just turning off Scott's powers for good- firing his ass and boting him from the books.
Then X-Men can become great book again.
Oh, and the Illumaniti use the Infinity gauntlet to erase greg Land's tracing ass while they're at it!

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Theres so much bullshit not said in this whole jerky event though- Why would Cyclops not just agree to have the X-Men go along into space with the Avengers and, you know...protect the world?

And why does Wolverine ask Rachel to intercept the Phionex? It's no stranger to her- or call up Korvis and the Cucoos and try to split the force into something managable?

Again, some contrived plot comes before writing characters as they've been established for decades- Cyclop's behavior is as stubborn and stupid as Steve and Tont's in Civil War.
Now in X-Men, Cyclops is taking the coward's route by slandering the Avengers in some media campaign?
Weak.

I tuly hope this all ends with The Illumaniti getting together and useing their Gems to whack that birdy outta the sky and Professor X walking up and just turning off Scott's powers for good- firing his ass and boting him from the books.
Then X-Men can become great book again.
Oh, and the Illumaniti use the Infinity gauntlet to erase greg Land's tracing ass while they're at it!

Ha ha ha...on Land. Ya that was kind of interesting on why Scott is using media to get at the Avenger's, kind of lame twist IMO.

[Greenskar]

Jason summed that up pretty well.

[Exodus]

Sorry probably irrelevant but dang psyched to see the X-Force tomorrow...and a new member joins in 2 months wonder who it'll be...If there was only 1 X-Title I could get it would be X-Force.

[Jason Abbadon]

Yeah- playing the persecution card is weak- and made more cowardly since it's his dumb ass endangering the whole world!
Douchebag.

Havok should go there and beat his ass...besides, what's to stop Sinister from cloning up a whole batch of Jeans to call the birdie to him?

And yes, X-Force does ick ass.

I kinda think Magneto will join eventually as he knows the secret and owes Wolvie one for killing that Nazi geezer for him..

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Yeah- playing the persecution card is weak- and made more cowardly since it's his dumb ass endangering the whole world!
Douchebag.

Havok should go there and beat his ass...besides, what's to stop Sinister from cloning up a whole batch of Jeans to call the birdie to him?

And yes, X-Force does ick ass.

I kinda think Magneto will join eventually as he knows the secret and owes Wolvie one for killing that Nazi geezer for him..

Dude, that was exactly why Symbiote made that custom "What If?" X-Force Magneto!

I would love to see that happen.

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Yeah- playing the persecution card is weak- and made more cowardly since it's his dumb ass endangering the whole world!
Douchebag.

Havok should go there and beat his ass...besides, what's to stop Sinister from cloning up a whole batch of Jeans to call the birdie to him?

And yes, X-Force does ick ass.

I kinda think Magneto will join eventually as he knows the secret and owes Wolvie one for killing that Nazi geezer for him..

That would be awesome, although any guesses on who it might be though besides Mags that would join. Someone brand new or an X-Member?

[Zeruel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodus

That would be awesome, although any guesses on who it might be though besides Mags that would join. Someone brand new or an X-Member?

As large as the X-stable is, I'd hope it's not someone completely new. I dunno, Warpath? He's still around right?

[Exodus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeruel

As large as the X-stable is, I'd hope it's not someone completely new. I dunno, Warpath? He's still around right?

Him and Domino yup they're on one of the Cyke's X-Teams currently. Check out the new X-Force thread I created, next few issues are going to be as sick as Dark Angel, could be even better...