Red Hood and the Outlaws

Jmacq1 · 09-23-2011, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xhavoc86

dun dun dun! People are officially disgusted with how Starfire and Catwoman are super trampy in the new comics! Article here.

I'm gonna be honest, I read both Catwoman and Red Hood, and I didn't think either of these comics were overly "sexy". Girls have always been half naked in comics and it feels like second nature. Sex in comics isn't that new either...so I don't see it. But I will say I felt the article was very one sided as there are plenty of female heroes that don't go the route of being overly sexy (Batwoman, Invisible Woman, etc).

There are some female heroes that don't...but they're rare, and depending on the artists even those get "Sexed up" from time to time.

But you almost NEVER see males presented in an equally sexualized fashion in mainstream comic books. Yeah, they might be shirtless or whatnot, but it isn't "sexy" it's "battle damage" or whatever.

The article is one-sided because it's a one-sided issue. Mainstream comics are TREMENDOUSLY skewed towards straight white males between the ages of 17-35. It's part of the reason they've been a dying industry for the past 20 years...they're turning off huge chunks of potential audience by either failing to cater to them at all, or doing an extremely poor job of it when they try (or worse yet, putting out a book supposedly designed to cater to a different/new audience and then canceling it after 6 issues because of low-sales, and using that as reinforcement to continue catering to their "main" audience rather than accepting that, hey...when you're trying to build an audience segment that's virtually at zero, it might actually take some TIME to accomplish that).

Jmacq1 · 09-26-2011, 04:34 AM

Shortpacked! - Math

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

Shortpacked! - Math

I call BS on this, The comic was Sold Out when I got to the Comic Book Shop. Looking forward to Vol 2 as well. I liked StarFire in Teen Titans, and I really like the StarFire in Redhood and the Outlaws. Why do people have to have a stick up their ass about this. Tony Stark aka Iron Man nailed Pepper Potts and Marie Hill in the Most Wanted storyline, but nobody said anything about it, StarFire and Catwomen do the same thing and they are Sluts, Bull@#$!

"Along with the Justice League announcement, DC revealed that all 12 titles debuting Wednesday have already sold out on the distributor level, and are also going back to press. Even Red Hood and the Outlaws."

Jmacq1 · 09-26-2011, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakobass

I call BS on this, The comic was Sold Out when I got to the Comic Book Shop. Looking forward to Vol 2 as well. I liked StarFire in Teen Titans, and I really like the StarFire in Redhood and the Outlaws. Why do people have to have a stick up their ass about this. Tony Stark aka Iron Man nailed Pepper Potts and Marie Hill in the Most Wanted storyline, but nobody said anything about it, StarFire and Catwomen do the same thing and they are Sluts, Bull@#$!

"Along with the Justice League announcement, DC revealed that all 12 titles debuting Wednesday have already sold out on the distributor level, and are also going back to press. Even Red Hood and the Outlaws."

Jesus Christ, you couldn't be more of a straw man if you danced around complaining "If I only had a brain."

Nobody is condemning sex in and of itself. NOBODY. Nobody is saying a woman having sex with more than one person is in and of itself "slutty."

But if you don't think just emotionlessly hopping into bed with whoever happens to be available (and who you won't remember later on anyway) because you're "bored" isn't really freaking borderline slutty, then I'd be really curious as to what YOUR definition of a "slut" would be? Why don't you inform us so we can be clear?

If you think taking a reasonably well-liked character that was formerly defined by her emotions and generally positive, healthy expression of sexuality and turning them into an emotionless sexbot isn't going to strike more than a few people as "wrong" then you've got a serious lack of insight into human nature.

If you think writing and drawing comics in a manner designed solely to appeal to 13 year old horndogs is "good comics" then...well, you've made it clear that's what you like, so I suppose that says a lot about your mentality.

And well, yeah...if you think two million isn't a far higher number than 100,000, then you might need some remedial math. The point is that "Teen Titans animated Starfire" is probably the best-known incarnation of that character where the general public is concerned. The point becomes even more sharp when there are OTHER characters in the "Nu-DC" that have undergone changes specifically to make them more like their animated counterparts for exactly that reason (Barbara Gordon Batgirl and Superboy spring immediately to mind). Presenting a version of a character that only superficially resembles the one that most people know is counterproductive to getting fans of that animated character to read the comics and thus, you know...growing your readership beyond the extremely insular and circular buying audience that currently makes up "comic readers."

PS: 100,000 readers is PHENOMENAL for a regular monthly comic title, and every idiot who knows diddly about the comic business knows that "first issues" from the major publishers almost always sell out. Particularly when accompanied by a huge marketing push like DC's "reboot" has been. You want to crow about this book selling out like it's some kind of accomplishment? Come back in about six months and see what the sales numbers say then. I can guarantee you that 6-12 months from now, a good half of these 52 #1 titles are going to be getting canceled despite "sellout" first issues, because they're not going to sustain this momentum past the first couple months at best.

PPS: "Selling out at the distributor level" doesn't mean every copy of the book has sold to a reader.

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 07:17 AM

Jesus Christ was your first word. That explains everything. I don't know or care about what StarFire was like in the past. This is the new StarFire, and I for one really like her, Fanservice and all. And still nothing about Tony Stark being a Slut. I'm just sick of the double standard, that's all.

I don't know jack about comic book sales, but I assume selling out of the comic is better then Not selling out. And since the whole reason for this New 52 was to increase sales and get new readers like me to buy, I say mission acomplised.

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 07:46 AM

One more thing, If people are going to give Starfire and Catwomen grief over being a Slut or Trampy, You have to do it for all the male characters to or it's a Bull@#$%! argument.
I'll put Tony Stark's bedcount up against Starfire's anyday. Hell, even Deadpool has a bigger "I Hit that" count then Starfire or Catwomen. Feel Free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Even if I am wrong, all that says is People like having SEX, Big shocker there!

CLASSIFIED · 09-26-2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacq1

But if you don't think just emotionlessly hopping into bed with whoever happens to be available (and who you won't remember later on anyway) because you're "bored" isn't really freaking borderline slutty, then I'd be really curious as to what YOUR definition of a "slut" would be? Why don't you inform us so we can be clear?

I think whether or not Starfire's actions in the first issue were slutty is subjective.

I also enjoyed the interaction between Batman and Catwoman in her first issue, but felt bad for any young children who may have accidently picked up that book.

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 10:29 AM

Maybe this is just a DC thing. I don't have 1 DC comic in my entire house. I've always been a Marvel guy. I wonder if Black Widow or Ms Marvel did the same thing, would there be such a backlash. Because of the edgy content, I'm seriously interested in this comic. I guess DC is trying to get rid of there "Goody Too Shoes" image. And if it means more DC comics like Red Hood and the Outlaws. I'm all for it.

Snowflakian · 09-26-2011, 10:37 AM

I'm not going to bash or promote the issues. Catowoman just didn't interest me, Red Hood I will be reading more issues of to see where it goes with all this.

#1 issues even if sold out, aren't a good marker for success. Digital sales can be as there is no resale market, which essentially blocks on good chunk of why #1s sell well. There is a good chunk of collectors that just buy #1s in hopes they'll rise in value. The real question is how many people will keep reading them. So issues 2-7 matter the most. #1s are a quick sales surge, but it's moot if the readership slides back to where it was before the relaunch. So let's say half the new readers were #1 collectors, and the other half are genuinely interested in seeing if they'll collect and read this.

Nakobass is right, there is a doublestandard with Comic fans. Tony Stark for example couldn't remember having slept with Pepper and Maria, yet no one blinks an eye. Kory does it in only one issue with no backstory as to why yet, and people get up in arms. By human moralistic standards, she's a slut. (Whores get paid.) By her races standard it's not so simple. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it looks more like a potential story point they may explore. For that matter, how do we know her species works on the same paradigm as ours? For all we know at this point in the relaunch her people could have it swapped around as the women are the more sexually dominant gender, which made it easier for her sister to sell her into slavery. Heck, for all we know, their reproductive cycles could be reversed and it's the man who gets pregnant. Or for that matter, it could very well be the 'time/dimension altering wave' that created the DCnU that caused it. Since she's not an earthborn hero, her memories wouldn't be as changed, but since everyone is part of her personal timeline on earth, her memories are partially altered creating this confused persona that many call 'memory like a goldfish.' When in reality it could just as easily be a commentary on how often her human side memories keep getting changed from whatever crisis/time wave/zerohour/whatever arc of the week.

Men are also quite sexualized in comics. Sure it's torn shirts, but it's also rippling muscles, strong dominant men, and other sexual tension type story nuances that do attract female readers. For Women, it's not all about the penis itself. They have a slightly different definition of sexy than men. So yes, comics objectify both quite regularly. The only time I genuinely have a problem with it in comics is when a character has been a clear victim of abuse all their life, is underage, or otherwise has a paradigm that makes it illogical for a character to be objectified. Then it comes into question as just fanservice and lazy writing, as well as sex baiting for those horny teenagers. Kory, while yes being fanservice, has the potential for the story behind the whys to be explored later since this is a rebooted universe more or less where everything has happened 'differently'. There are a lot of problems with DCnU, and nitpicking the small ones doesn't make those go away.

A strawman argument is when something doesn't apply. The Tony stark comparison does, just the story behind it is reversed. We got the why stark had no memories first, and then his actions. You'd think people would complain more about that, as stark himself was mentally deficient and lacking memories as he slept with Pepper, and wouldn't even remember it the next hour let alone the next day. So it does apply, just that we've yet to see if there will be any story reason for Kory other than the fact she's an alien and thinks all humans look alike. It's a first issue, save the complaining for if it stays this way repeatedly, until then it's just a one off moment with story potential (especially now that people have complained, as they'll use it as a way to go "see, we did have a reason for that, so chill out").

As for Catwoman, she's always been a sexualized character. So her story really didn't much for me one way or the other. Mostly it was just a whatever, this is boring and it sucks that they won't build up the romance between the cat and the bat. It just jumped right into the entire dynamic of "yeah they fool around often cause batman likes doing his female villians that have slight moral obligations to be a criminal." My problem with DCnU is it really isn't a reboot at all except for Supergirl, Superman, Action Comics, Justice League, and JLI. Deathstroke's comic too. Everything else has clear mentions of past canon, vague mentions, or suggests lots of the same stories happened in this reality but they just happened differently. So many of the titles are alienating both new and old readers. Many of the titles didn't even really reboot, like batman, nightwing, GL, and so on. Which makes it all the more confusing to new readers.

So let's just take a step back. See if this is really going to be the new Kory with no explanation, and then once we know if she's going to just be one of those sluts/tools that will just screw anything on two legs without any kind of reason whatsoever other than liking sex. Even if that is the case, why isn't she worried about pregnancy at all? I'll forgo the STD concerns because of her alien physiology, but it really isn't that uncommon for even humans both male and female to act this way, and they don't have the entire morally and culturally different views an alien might have. Not saying that's an excuse, just that give it another two or three issues to make certain she is what everyone is rallying behind and crying foul on. Comics are a serial medium, one issue does not a defined character with all the reasoning make. Many might say the same about tony stark if they'd only read the one issue during stark dissassembled of him sleeping with pepper potts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakobass

Maybe this is just a DC thing. I don't have 1 DC comic in my entire house. I've always been a Marvel guy. I wonder if Black Widow or Ms Marvel did the same thing, would there be such a backlash. Because of the edgy content, I'm seriously interested in this comic. I guess DC is trying to get rid of there "Goody Too Shoes" image. And if it means more DC comics like Red Hood and the Outlaws. I'm all for it.

Ms. Marvel has a rape storyline, and Black Widow has a sexual apetite, but she's a spy so it tends to be somewhat expected/used to her advantage. Marvel tends to play up a more 'sex in the city' usage with their female avengers that's just boring to read and also makes it seem like all women need a man in their life.

To be fair. My personal view on this is the same as some others. They should have used this reboot to make the characters like Starfire, Raven, even Clark for that matter, more akin to what new readers may expect. Like now they have a chance to add chloe into Clark's origin. They could have picked up on the more titans toon era Raven to appeal to the fans that never liked the Titans comic one(possibly even help crosspromote the upcoming new CW show), they should have done the same with Kory, and given us one that has a valid reason to want to stay on earth, or at least given us some a real reboot, and shown us how point A led to point C. Instead of bam, "here's point C without points A and B. It's a reboot deal with it" type mentality they are doing with all of them but Justice League, Blue Beetle, and Action Comics.

xhavoc86 · 09-26-2011, 11:30 AM

Craziness!

I have to agree though, Batman and Iron Man are pretty notorious and no one says anything about them! It very much is a double standard... but I was talking on another forum about the costume choices for women and someone did bring up some "sexy" type costumes for mens... Doctor Manhattan (full frontal, all nakedness, birthday suit), Namor (Speedo), and Dick Grayson as Robin had short shorts. lol

men are also Objectified in comics, just not enough people notice... Gail Simone is awesome

CLASSIFIED · 09-26-2011, 12:28 PM

One thing I didn't like about Catwoman #1 was the implication that Batman didn't have stanima.

He's supposed to be the best at everything for pete's sake!

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

The real question is how many people will keep reading them. So issues 2-7 matter the most. #1s are a quick sales surge, but it's moot if the readership slides back to where it was before the relaunch. So let's say half the new readers were #1 collectors, and the other half are genuinely interested in seeing if they'll collect and read this.

I really do hope issues 2-7 and beyond do well. Red Hood and the Outlaws is the only DC comic I'm really interested in. Well that and the Green Lantern Corps. I tend to favor Red Hood over Batman. Batman is great, but he won't cross that line and kill someone(as far as I know). Some villains you just have to take out. Letting a person like Joker live to kill even more people is a crime in itself in a way. I'm not saying Batman should kill the average Bank Robber, or Thugs, but for monsters like Joker, he has to take them out. That's my way of seeing it anyway.

DogFashionDisco · 09-26-2011, 01:47 PM

I'm a Trade Paper Back kind of guy myself, since I hate waiting around to find out what happens next. Comics are too short in my opinion.

LXL_Guy · 09-26-2011, 02:00 PM

Eh...I'll keep with this title to see where it goes. I'm hoping for character development besides Todd since he seems to be moving forward. I'm a fan of Titans so I want to see what happens with the characters of Starfire & Red Arrow.

Snowflakian · 09-26-2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakobass

I really do hope issues 2-7 and beyond do well. Red Hood and the Outlaws is the only DC comic I'm really interested in. Well that and the Green Lantern Corps. I tend to favor Red Hood over Batman. Batman is great, but he won't cross that line and kill someone(as far as I know). Some villains you just have to take out. Letting a person like Joker live to kill even more people is a crime in itself in a way. I'm not saying Batman should kill the average Bank Robber, or Thugs, but for monsters like Joker, he has to take them out. That's my way of seeing it anyway.

The problem with that is best covered in the Red Hood movie. It will make joker win by proving he and bats are the same. Batman doesn't take justice into his own hands, now why the justice system doesn't do that is another matter entirely. Batman isn't judge dredd, he doesn't play judge jury and exectioner, he just makes sure they are caught, and the evidence is there for the courts to handle the rest. He supports the system, and if the system is flawed, will try to find a way to work within it to fix it. As the Red Hood movie points out, it'd be too easy for batman to kill the Joker(he even wants to!), but it'd be a slippery slope after the fact too. Batman isn't about cold blooded vengence, but is about enforcing justice.

DogFashionDisco · 09-26-2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

The problem with that is best covered in the Red Hood movie. It will make joker win by proving he and bats are the same. Batman doesn't take justice into his own hands, now why the justice system doesn't do that is another matter entirely. Batman isn't judge dredd, he doesn't play judge jury and exectioner, he just makes sure they are caught, and the evidence is there for the courts to handle the rest. He supports the system, and if the system is flawed, will try to find a way to work within it to fix it. As the Red Hood movie points out, it'd be too easy for batman to kill the Joker(he even wants to!), but it'd be a slippery slope after the fact too. Batman isn't about cold blooded vengence, but is about enforcing justice.

Hell, I've written a college paper on this topic, I over analyzed the subject so much that I somehow ended up with an A. Red Hood might be effective, but he's obsessed with being Batman, not Red Hood.

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflakian

The problem with that is best covered in the Red Hood movie. It will make joker win by proving he and bats are the same. Batman doesn't take justice into his own hands, now why the justice system doesn't do that is another matter entirely. Batman isn't judge dredd, he doesn't play judge jury and exectioner, he just makes sure they are caught, and the evidence is there for the courts to handle the rest. He supports the system, and if the system is flawed, will try to find a way to work within it to fix it. As the Red Hood movie points out, it'd be too easy for batman to kill the Joker(he even wants to!), but it'd be a slippery slope after the fact too. Batman isn't about cold blooded vengence, but is about enforcing justice.

I have to admit that's a good point. Can you explain why the system hasn't sent the Joker to Deathrow. I'm not up to date on everything Batman, but it can't be the old insanity thing. I read somewhere that Joker was ultra-sane.

Batman should have said what you said more or less at the end of Under the Red Hood. It would have made more sense then him saying if he goes down into that dark place, he'll never come back.

DogFashionDisco · 09-26-2011, 04:47 PM

If you're looking for death (which it seems like you are) The Joker kills just as many bad guys as good guys, if not more. Think about that.

RexLewis85 · 09-26-2011, 05:07 PM

I can't wait till this comes out in TPB format. I don't do single issues so it looks like I'll be waiting about a year to read it. Has anyone read Red Hood: The Early Days? I've been trying to decide if it's worht picking up.

DogFashionDisco · 09-26-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RexLewis85

I can't wait till this comes out in TPB format. I don't do single issues so it looks like I'll be waiting about a year to read it. Has anyone read Red Hood: The Early Days? I've been trying to decide if it's worht picking up.

I think you mean Lost Days, and yes, I recommend checking it out. It is pretty good.

Autobot_Goldbug · 09-26-2011, 05:41 PM

I really dislike the new Starfire. It's as if DC has lobotomized her.

nakobass · 09-26-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DogFashionDisco

If you're looking for death (which it seems like you are) The Joker kills just as many bad guys as good guys, if not more. Think about that.

No, I'm looking for why a Jury never convicted him and sentenced him to death row in the comics, or did he just escape again, just curious.

CLASSIFIED · 09-26-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakobass

No, I'm looking for why a Jury never convicted him and sentenced him to death row in the comics, or did he just escape again, just curious.

Because he's insane.

Still Wind · 09-26-2011, 07:46 PM

Love the art work, looks like DC is starting to act more like marvel, kind of reminds me to the 90s.

Snowflakian · 09-26-2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakobass

I have to admit that's a good point. Can you explain why the system hasn't sent the Joker to Deathrow. I'm not up to date on everything Batman, but it can't be the old insanity thing. I read somewhere that Joker was ultra-sane.

Batman should have said what you said more or less at the end of Under the Red Hood. It would have made more sense then him saying if he goes down into that dark place, he'll never come back.

I don't even know how to touch that one. That's just too complicated to even try. It's fiction, let's leave it at that lol. (I wonder the same about why no civillians have, or guards at the various facilities joker ends up at.)

09-26-2011, 05:30 AM	#28
nakobass Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 493	Quote: Originally Posted by Jmacq1 Shortpacked! - Math I call BS on this, The comic was Sold Out when I got to the Comic Book Shop. Looking forward to Vol 2 as well. I liked StarFire in Teen Titans, and I really like the StarFire in Redhood and the Outlaws. Why do people have to have a stick up their ass about this. Tony Stark aka Iron Man nailed Pepper Potts and Marie Hill in the Most Wanted storyline, but nobody said anything about it, StarFire and Catwomen do the same thing and they are Sluts, Bull@#$! "Along with the Justice League announcement, DC revealed that all 12 titles debuting Wednesday have already sold out on the distributor level, and are also going back to press. Even Red Hood and the Outlaws." Last edited by nakobass; 09-26-2011 at 06:05 AM.. Reason: update

09-26-2011, 06:36 AM	#29
Jmacq1 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 697	Quote: Originally Posted by nakobass I call BS on this, The comic was Sold Out when I got to the Comic Book Shop. Looking forward to Vol 2 as well. I liked StarFire in Teen Titans, and I really like the StarFire in Redhood and the Outlaws. Why do people have to have a stick up their ass about this. Tony Stark aka Iron Man nailed Pepper Potts and Marie Hill in the Most Wanted storyline, but nobody said anything about it, StarFire and Catwomen do the same thing and they are Sluts, Bull@#$! "Along with the Justice League announcement, DC revealed that all 12 titles debuting Wednesday have already sold out on the distributor level, and are also going back to press. Even Red Hood and the Outlaws." Jesus Christ, you couldn't be more of a straw man if you danced around complaining "If I only had a brain." Nobody is condemning sex in and of itself. NOBODY. Nobody is saying a woman having sex with more than one person is in and of itself "slutty." But if you don't think just emotionlessly hopping into bed with whoever happens to be available (and who you won't remember later on anyway) because you're "bored" isn't really freaking borderline slutty, then I'd be really curious as to what YOUR definition of a "slut" would be? Why don't you inform us so we can be clear? If you think taking a reasonably well-liked character that was formerly defined by her emotions and generally positive, healthy expression of sexuality and turning them into an emotionless sexbot isn't going to strike more than a few people as "wrong" then you've got a serious lack of insight into human nature. If you think writing and drawing comics in a manner designed solely to appeal to 13 year old horndogs is "good comics" then...well, you've made it clear that's what you like, so I suppose that says a lot about your mentality. And well, yeah...if you think two million isn't a far higher number than 100,000, then you might need some remedial math. The point is that "Teen Titans animated Starfire" is probably the best-known incarnation of that character where the general public is concerned. The point becomes even more sharp when there are OTHER characters in the "Nu-DC" that have undergone changes specifically to make them more like their animated counterparts for exactly that reason (Barbara Gordon Batgirl and Superboy spring immediately to mind). Presenting a version of a character that only superficially resembles the one that most people know is counterproductive to getting fans of that animated character to read the comics and thus, you know...growing your readership beyond the extremely insular and circular buying audience that currently makes up "comic readers." PS: 100,000 readers is PHENOMENAL for a regular monthly comic title, and every idiot who knows diddly about the comic business knows that "first issues" from the major publishers almost always sell out. Particularly when accompanied by a huge marketing push like DC's "reboot" has been. You want to crow about this book selling out like it's some kind of accomplishment? Come back in about six months and see what the sales numbers say then. I can guarantee you that 6-12 months from now, a good half of these 52 #1 titles are going to be getting canceled despite "sellout" first issues, because they're not going to sustain this momentum past the first couple months at best. PPS: "Selling out at the distributor level" doesn't mean every copy of the book has sold to a reader. Last edited by Jmacq1; 09-26-2011 at 06:48 AM..

09-26-2011, 07:17 AM	#30
nakobass Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 493	Jesus Christ was your first word. That explains everything. I don't know or care about what StarFire was like in the past. This is the new StarFire, and I for one really like her, Fanservice and all. And still nothing about Tony Stark being a Slut. I'm just sick of the double standard, that's all. I don't know jack about comic book sales, but I assume selling out of the comic is better then Not selling out. And since the whole reason for this New 52 was to increase sales and get new readers like me to buy, I say mission acomplised. Last edited by nakobass; 09-26-2011 at 07:39 AM..

09-26-2011, 10:19 AM	#32
CLASSIFIED Santa Claus Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 2,400	Quote: Originally Posted by Jmacq1 But if you don't think just emotionlessly hopping into bed with whoever happens to be available (and who you won't remember later on anyway) because you're "bored" isn't really freaking borderline slutty, then I'd be really curious as to what YOUR definition of a "slut" would be? Why don't you inform us so we can be clear? I think whether or not Starfire's actions in the first issue were slutty is subjective. I also enjoyed the interaction between Batman and Catwoman in her first issue, but felt bad for any young children who may have accidently picked up that book. __________________

09-26-2011, 10:37 AM	#34
Snowflakian Illyria's New Qwa'ha Xahn Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: In the clouds. Posts: 4,120	I'm not going to bash or promote the issues. Catowoman just didn't interest me, Red Hood I will be reading more issues of to see where it goes with all this. #1 issues even if sold out, aren't a good marker for success. Digital sales can be as there is no resale market, which essentially blocks on good chunk of why #1s sell well. There is a good chunk of collectors that just buy #1s in hopes they'll rise in value. The real question is how many people will keep reading them. So issues 2-7 matter the most. #1s are a quick sales surge, but it's moot if the readership slides back to where it was before the relaunch. So let's say half the new readers were #1 collectors, and the other half are genuinely interested in seeing if they'll collect and read this. Nakobass is right, there is a doublestandard with Comic fans. Tony Stark for example couldn't remember having slept with Pepper and Maria, yet no one blinks an eye. Kory does it in only one issue with no backstory as to why yet, and people get up in arms. By human moralistic standards, she's a slut. (Whores get paid.) By her races standard it's not so simple. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it looks more like a potential story point they may explore. For that matter, how do we know her species works on the same paradigm as ours? For all we know at this point in the relaunch her people could have it swapped around as the women are the more sexually dominant gender, which made it easier for her sister to sell her into slavery. Heck, for all we know, their reproductive cycles could be reversed and it's the man who gets pregnant. Or for that matter, it could very well be the 'time/dimension altering wave' that created the DCnU that caused it. Since she's not an earthborn hero, her memories wouldn't be as changed, but since everyone is part of her personal timeline on earth, her memories are partially altered creating this confused persona that many call 'memory like a goldfish.' When in reality it could just as easily be a commentary on how often her human side memories keep getting changed from whatever crisis/time wave/zerohour/whatever arc of the week. Men are also quite sexualized in comics. Sure it's torn shirts, but it's also rippling muscles, strong dominant men, and other sexual tension type story nuances that do attract female readers. For Women, it's not all about the penis itself. They have a slightly different definition of sexy than men. So yes, comics objectify both quite regularly. The only time I genuinely have a problem with it in comics is when a character has been a clear victim of abuse all their life, is underage, or otherwise has a paradigm that makes it illogical for a character to be objectified. Then it comes into question as just fanservice and lazy writing, as well as sex baiting for those horny teenagers. Kory, while yes being fanservice, has the potential for the story behind the whys to be explored later since this is a rebooted universe more or less where everything has happened 'differently'. There are a lot of problems with DCnU, and nitpicking the small ones doesn't make those go away. A strawman argument is when something doesn't apply. The Tony stark comparison does, just the story behind it is reversed. We got the why stark had no memories first, and then his actions. You'd think people would complain more about that, as stark himself was mentally deficient and lacking memories as he slept with Pepper, and wouldn't even remember it the next hour let alone the next day. So it does apply, just that we've yet to see if there will be any story reason for Kory other than the fact she's an alien and thinks all humans look alike. It's a first issue, save the complaining for if it stays this way repeatedly, until then it's just a one off moment with story potential (especially now that people have complained, as they'll use it as a way to go "see, we did have a reason for that, so chill out"). As for Catwoman, she's always been a sexualized character. So her story really didn't much for me one way or the other. Mostly it was just a whatever, this is boring and it sucks that they won't build up the romance between the cat and the bat. It just jumped right into the entire dynamic of "yeah they fool around often cause batman likes doing his female villians that have slight moral obligations to be a criminal." My problem with DCnU is it really isn't a reboot at all except for Supergirl, Superman, Action Comics, Justice League, and JLI. Deathstroke's comic too. Everything else has clear mentions of past canon, vague mentions, or suggests lots of the same stories happened in this reality but they just happened differently. So many of the titles are alienating both new and old readers. Many of the titles didn't even really reboot, like batman, nightwing, GL, and so on. Which makes it all the more confusing to new readers. So let's just take a step back. See if this is really going to be the new Kory with no explanation, and then once we know if she's going to just be one of those sluts/tools that will just screw anything on two legs without any kind of reason whatsoever other than liking sex. Even if that is the case, why isn't she worried about pregnancy at all? I'll forgo the STD concerns because of her alien physiology, but it really isn't that uncommon for even humans both male and female to act this way, and they don't have the entire morally and culturally different views an alien might have. Not saying that's an excuse, just that give it another two or three issues to make certain she is what everyone is rallying behind and crying foul on. Comics are a serial medium, one issue does not a defined character with all the reasoning make. Many might say the same about tony stark if they'd only read the one issue during stark dissassembled of him sleeping with pepper potts. Quote: Originally Posted by nakobass Maybe this is just a DC thing. I don't have 1 DC comic in my entire house. I've always been a Marvel guy. I wonder if Black Widow or Ms Marvel did the same thing, would there be such a backlash. Because of the edgy content, I'm seriously interested in this comic. I guess DC is trying to get rid of there "Goody Too Shoes" image. And if it means more DC comics like Red Hood and the Outlaws. I'm all for it. Ms. Marvel has a rape storyline, and Black Widow has a sexual apetite, but she's a spy so it tends to be somewhat expected/used to her advantage. Marvel tends to play up a more 'sex in the city' usage with their female avengers that's just boring to read and also makes it seem like all women need a man in their life. To be fair. My personal view on this is the same as some others. They should have used this reboot to make the characters like Starfire, Raven, even Clark for that matter, more akin to what new readers may expect. Like now they have a chance to add chloe into Clark's origin. They could have picked up on the more titans toon era Raven to appeal to the fans that never liked the Titans comic one(possibly even help crosspromote the upcoming new CW show), they should have done the same with Kory, and given us one that has a valid reason to want to stay on earth, or at least given us some a real reboot, and shown us how point A led to point C. Instead of bam, "here's point C without points A and B. It's a reboot deal with it" type mentality they are doing with all of them but Justice League, Blue Beetle, and Action Comics. __________________ Last edited by Snowflakian; 09-26-2011 at 10:52 AM..