[hasbroherofan]

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Originally Posted by evilekim

Sorry, but that shouldn't seem like forever.

If you're being anal, sure.

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Originally Posted by Boy Blunder

Also, please point out where him being white means anything to his backstory or personality. I'll wait.

Everyone suddenly cares about these things when a character is no longer white.

[evilekim]

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Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

If you're being anal, sure.



Everyone suddenly cares about these things when a character is no longer white.

Not true. Remember the "whitewashing" accusations in "GHOST IN THE SHELL"?

[Boy Blunder]

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Originally Posted by Nitelife

Because its lazy name slapping. Because matt trakker was white. They coulda made hondo the new leader or had matt be part of a bigger organization and his boss be black. I think its mainly fans are tired of seeing race/ gender swapping of long established characters as it does not truly expand a brand/line/product and just panders to the vocal minority.

True expansion comes from creating NEW characters not just lazily slapping a pre-established character's name and history onto a different body.

The only thing I'm seeing is a bunch of whiny not!kids complaining that something was changed without giving a valid reason not to change it.

Hell, I loved MASK when I was a young'n, but I couldn't pick out a damn one of them out of a line-up without their vehicles nearby. I still can't, because the vehicles were as much, if not more, of a selling point. Whatever depth of character there might be with Matt, it certainly didn't stem from him being as generically cookie-cutter as nearly every other major 'strong male' team leader from cartoons of the era. I didn't even watch Centurions all that much, but you'd better believe that I remembered that Tom Selleck-looking Max Ray a helluva lot better than I remember any of the droves of blonde white dudes in other cartoons.

But I saw one image of Matt in the new comics, and I actually took notice. Certainly more than I ever could remember noticing him in the old days.

Do I think there need to be more new characters, as you said? Absolutely. But I also know, just as you probably could figure out, that newer characters are a hard sell, and to get them off the ground, you still need audience investment. And a good way to get them to come in is to give them a change that catches their eye. And even with all the crying here, they still have your attention. Might not get you reading the book/buying the toy, but you're only one out of many, many people.

And I'm sorry, but the whole 'lazy name slapping' thing has been around for too long to be a viable argument any more, especially when a great number of those 'name-slaps' have grown more popular than the original use of the name. Any peek into the Transformers fiction will show you that.

I'm seriously looking at Matt Trakker's personality and history, and not seeing anything tied to his race or cultural heritage. So why not change him? He's still the same character. Getting chapped about it isn't doing anything but drawing attention to the unwillingness to accept change.

[hasbroherofan]

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Originally Posted by evilekim

Not true. Remember the "whitewashing" accusations in "GHOST IN THE SHELL"?

That's because Asian Americans tend to get crapped on in Hollywood. There's no lack of roles for white actors. I'm sorry but when I see people pitching a fit over a black guy leading M.A.S.K. of all things, it seems like performative outrage.

[thewriteguy]

That ROM 3.75" figure: Yuck. We could probably do a kit-bash that would look far better than this official version.

[Harbinger]

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Originally Posted by evilekim

Not true. Remember the "whitewashing" accusations in "GHOST IN THE SHELL"?

The irony is that a lotta anime tends to look more american than asian. And thats drawn BY asians.

@bb
Tf is a prime example ( mainly the craptacular bayverese ) oh how name slapping is not a good idea. I ge creatng a new character is a hard sell but unless we get new the name slap thing is never gonna end, i get certain characters can be " legacy" but certain ones arent. It is lazy ( and cheap ) by companies as they try to put short term profits over the longevity ( and sustainabilty ) of franchises.

I just don't like it as it promotes laziness and lack of creativity, creativity that once made entertainment great.

[Jeddostotle7]

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Originally Posted by Dr Kain

Skyfire is cool despite having the wrong face.

Not the wrong face, it's the face the toy had. Plus, that's actually a removable facemask (the ear/antenna things included), with a more cartoon-accurate face underneath.

[Snowflakian]

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Originally Posted by Nitelife

Because its lazy name slapping. Because matt trakker was white. They coulda made hondo the new leader or had matt be part of a bigger organization and his boss be black. I think its mainly fans are tired of seeing race/ gender swapping of long established characters as it does not truly expand a brand/line/product and just panders to the vocal minority.

True expansion comes from creating NEW characters not just lazily slapping a pre-established character's name and history onto a different body.

Because when race doesn't play a factor in the character's persona, it's open for any interpretation.

When race does play a factor to the character nature, it can't be changed.

Matt Trakker is one it doesn't matter. Johnny Storm is one that it doesn't matter(on that one they should have played it up more about how Franklin seemed to favor his adopted daughter over his own son and then explore that for the emotional turnover of Johnny's rebelliousness and acceptance of his sister, they hinted at it, but never really made it clear to the audience). It varies character to character based on their innate metaphors. Being white isn't innate to their metaphor, though it is for a character like Ironfist. Same as race is innate to other characters like America Chavez being a Latina, Black Panther being African. White Tiger being a Latina. Etc. Those can't be changed because it's part of their character metaphor to who they are.

Changing ones that don't matter, isn't a big deal. If more kids get enjoyment out of it because of it, yay. It's not pandering. If you don't like it, you can still buy the previous released Trakker figure that's based on his classic self. That one has already been released and is somewhat cheap to find on ebay. So IDW chose to vary it up on a character that was open to do so. It's not a big deal.

New characters get created, people still call that pandering. Change a character for an AU based story, people whine then too. Personally, I think the change is awesome of IDW.

I really don't get why it's such an issue either way. New interpretations happen all the time. It's what makes comics great.

[evilekim]

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Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

That's because Asian Americans tend to get crapped on in Hollywood. There's no lack of roles for white actors. I'm sorry but when I see people pitching a fit over a black guy leading M.A.S.K. of all things, it seems like performative outrage.

Just for the record, I am not one pitching a fit, but I no others are. Unfortunately comics don't hit as broad of an audience as toys and cartoons. Confusion is kind of expected for this, as many don't know about the changes going on with this character.

All that aside, anybody want to hook me up with A Matt Trakker and ROM figure

[hasbroherofan]

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Originally Posted by Jeddostotle7

Not the wrong face, it's the face the toy had. Plus, that's actually a removable facemask (the ear/antenna things included), with a more cartoon-accurate face underneath.

I haven't been following TF but is there a reason they're allowed to use the original face now? Was there some kind of settlement with the Macross people?

I thought the whole point for the Skyfire name and face change was that there were rights issues since Jetfire was just a repainted Valkyrie.

[Tokyomeltdown]

Cool, but somehow not interested.

[ukmu]

Toy crossovers don't work.

Look at all the different people from different threads here, we can't even get along to complain together!

That said, I'd go $33 for ROM cash in advance, despite his flaws. Any takers PM me. What is a Marvel display without him standing next to Deaths Head?

[Lionheart]

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The only thing I'm seeing is a bunch of whiny not!kids complaining that something was changed without giving a valid reason not to change it.

There also wasn't a valid reason to change it, yet changed it was. Also, why 'whine' about them 'whining'? If it doesn't bother you just say so and move on.

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And I'm sorry, but the whole 'lazy name slapping' thing has been around for too long to be a viable argument any more

A valid argument stops being valid because it's old?

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especially when a great number of those 'name-slaps' have grown more popular than the original use of the name. Any peek into the Transformers fiction will show you that.

And if they name change them further down the line then the people who like those iterations will also complain, and on it will go.

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That's because Asian Americans tend to get crapped on in Hollywood. There's no lack of roles for white actors.

Would that be because Asians are what, 5%, 8% - of the US population? I'm pretty sure there's no shortage of great roles for Asians in, say, China, or Japan.

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The irony is that a lotta anime tends to look more american than asian. And thats drawn BY asians.

There is an ongoing argument about that, and how they don't actually look Caucasian at all with their tall thin frames, prominent noses, round different-coloured eyes and different-shaped different-coloured hair. I believe the argument against that is that people 'just don't understand it' and that they aren't Caucasian looking at all because Caucasians don't have blue hair, etc. But I can't recall exactly.

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Because when race doesn't play a factor in the character's persona, it's open for any interpretation.

When race does play a factor to the character nature, it can't be changed.

But that's a bit of a Catch 22 isn't it? Because many non-white characters were (are?) created specifically to deal with issues of race / identity, so identity politics are part of their reason for existing. That means by default you could race switch almost all white characters (who weren't created with racial identity as central to them), but not non-white. However, to show it doesn't always work out that way; in the Thor movie we were supposed to be seeing Asgard, a land based on Norse (Scandinavian) mythology - which was the Scandinavian image of gods based on themselves - yet they didn't have any problem making Heimdall black. Same with the Greek island of Themyscira - multi racial. It genuinely interests me as to whether or not we are going to see a multi-racial Wakanda in the upcoming movie.

However, as an aside, I would be genuinely interested to know what black (or non-white) characters of prominence in the Marvel Universe you would be ok with race-swapping to white. And a couple of prominent white characters who you think couldn't be racially changed. Genuinely curious.

About the toys:

I like the Rom, even though he's flawed. I like the Leoric, although no holograms is a MAJOR letdown, but these are going to be scalped to high hell on eBay so I might pass on them both.

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbroherofan

I haven't been following TF but is there a reason they're allowed to use the original face now? Was there some kind of settlement with the Macross people?

I thought the whole point for the Skyfire name and face change was that there were rights issues since Jetfire was just a repainted Valkyrie.

Because it's different enough to pay homage without infringing on the likeness of a veritech fighter.

Same way TF Prime Arcee is inspired by Priss from Bubblegum Crisis, but is different enough it's a non-issue.

The original toy though on the other hand, likely won't see any kind of re-release stateside ever except maybe at a convention where the rules can be a little more relaxed since it's not meant for normal retail market.

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart

And if they name change them further down the line then the people who like those iterations will also complain, and on it will go.

I think their initial point was that clearly, it's not as big a problem as people keep saying it is.

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'm pretty sure there's no shortage of great roles for Asians in, say, China, or Japan.

Agree. They should just go back to where they came from.

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in the Thor movie we were supposed to be seeing Asgard, a land based on Norse (Scandinavian) mythology - which was the Scandinavian image of gods based on themselves - yet they didn't have any problem making Heimdall black.

Thor had an out because the first movie pretty much says they aren't the same as the gods from Norse mythology, but inspired them. That's why Kat Dennings' character has a line about primitive cultures like Vikings mistaking the Asgardians for celestial deities.

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Same with the Greek island of Themyscira - multi racial.

Themyscira being multiracial is straight fro the comics. The origin of the Amazons was that they were reincarnated from women who were brutalized or murdered across history.

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It genuinely interests me as to whether or not we are going to see a multi-racial Wakanda in the upcoming movie.

There's no way that's happening. Besides they already have Klaw and Martin Freeman's character.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Snowflakian

Because it's different enough to pay homage without infringing on the likeness of a veritech fighter.

Same way TF Prime Arcee is inspired by Priss from Bubblegum Crisis, but is different enough it's a non-issue.

The original toy though on the other hand, likely won't see any kind of re-release stateside ever except maybe at a convention where the rules can be a little more relaxed since it's not meant for normal retail market.

Ah, thanks I wasn't aware it was different.

[En Sabah Nerd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart

However, as an aside, I would be genuinely interested to know what black (or non-white) characters of prominence in the Marvel Universe you would be ok with race-swapping to white. And a couple of prominent white characters who you think couldn't be racially changed. Genuinely curious.

War-Machine I guess could be made white, his basic background is just military service and being Tony's friend, and I think Steve Rogers should always be white because he comes from the 1940s when I doubt the military would make anyone else a super-soldier and him being white helps him represent opposition to the Nazis by someone they would gladly have on their side.

I think we should veer away from this type of discussion, it isn't really suitable for the thread and if it escalates the mods would have to step in.

[Lionheart]

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I think their initial point was that clearly, it's not as big a problem as people keep saying it is.

And mine was that for some people it is. There is no right and wrong.

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Agree. They should just go back to where they came from.

No, they should recognise that as a minority in a country they won't be as well represented as the majority. If I moved to China and raised a family there, how many generations could I wait before I complained that the country didn't represent me well enough? But aside from that, my point has a valid basis: lots of British Indians work in the Bollywood film industry because they have an advantage of the native Indians. They can get damn good careers out of it. And they don't go because they have no opportunities in the UK, just that the competition is much higher for less work, and in Bollywood they stand out more. If Asian-Americans were to go to China I expect they would find work easier to get, and it would be a great time to get involved in what is a young but massively expanding industry.

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Thor had an out because the first movie pretty much says they aren't the same as the gods from Norse mythology, but inspired them. That's why Kat Dennings' character has a line about primitive cultures like Vikings mistaking the Asgardians for celestial deities.

That may be an out, but I'll call it a 'cop-out'

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Themyscira being multiracial is straight fro the comics. The origin of the Amazons was that they were reincarnated from women who were brutalized or murdered across history.

Not the original comics - just the rebooted version. And that represents far more the writers / artists multiracial society at the time than Greece itself. I mean, have you ever been to the Greek islands? Do you know how multiracial they are? They're not. But again, they're fictional lands right? Just like Asgard, which brings us to the equally fictional lands of Wakanda...

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There's no way that's happening. Besides they already have Klaw and Martin Freeman's character.

Well, we don't know for certain yet, but there's no reason why they shouldn't. They could just as easily do a Thor cop-out, after all Wakanda is fictional (and magical).

[hasbroherofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart

No, they should recognise that as a minority in a country they won't be as well represented as the majority.

Whatever you say....

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Not the original comics - just the rebooted version.

From thirty something years ago, yes. Pretty much every adaptation since then has gone with that depiction.

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Well, we don't know for certain yet

No I can say pretty certainly there won't be white people in Wakanda. Other than frozen Bucky, I guess. Unless that's where Stan Lee's cameo is, which admittedly would be funny.

[LordMudd]

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Originally Posted by En Sabah Nerd

War-Machine I guess could be made white, his basic background is just military service and being Tony's friend, and I think Steve Rogers should always be white because he comes from the 1940s when I doubt the military would make anyone else a super-soldier and him being white helps him represent opposition to the Nazis by someone they would gladly have on their side.

As should Sgt. Nick Fury (and his Howling Commandos).


CCC.

[Thor Laserpunch]

Perspective: MASK was poorly animated, thinly plotted drivel made to sell toys and was popular for like 2 years in the 80s. The heroes you should actually care about are the significant others who support you action figure hoarding maniacs while you sit around typing essay length posts about comics and fantasy for hours on end.

[Lionheart]

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Whatever you say....

Well what do YOU say? Beyond implying questionable motives for opinions I express...

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From thirty something years ago, yes. Pretty much every adaptation since then has gone with that depiction.

But that says more about the times that those depictions came from than the source material, doesn't it? Even the '78 Superman movie had non-white Kryptonians, but that also had nothing to do with the source material, and everything to do with it being 1978.

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No I can say pretty certainly there won't be white people in Wakanda. Other than frozen Bucky, I guess. Unless that's where Stan Lee's cameo is, which admittedly would be funny.

Well I hope you're wrong (not about the Lee cameo!) as this would be a good time to really put their money where their mouth is as far as an all-inclusive Marvel Cinematic Universe.

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Perspective: MASK was poorly animated, thinly plotted drivel made to sell toys and was popular for like 2 years in the 80s.

True. But you could say that about almost every toy-selling cartoon.

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The heroes you should actually care about are the significant others who support you action figure hoarding maniacs while you sit around typing essay length posts about comics and fantasy for hours on end.

Why don't you let people decide what they want to care about rather than telling them what they "should" care about? FYI - it isn't an either / or proposition - people can care about others in their life and still have time to express opinions on hobbies / interests they may have online. Also, I support myself, and I'm pretty sure most people who post on this board work to enable them to pay for their hobbies regardless of which side of the current discussion they are on.

[Thor Laserpunch]

Ok, care too much about dumb stuff. Does me no harm.

[Lionheart]

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Ok, care too much about dumb stuff. Does me no harm.

Toys, superheroes, cartoons, movies, entertainment, sports - a lot of life could be categorised as 'dumb stuff' really. And a few posts on an occasional thread about movies, toys, comics - whatever, doesn't really seem like 'caring too much'. But hey - each to their own.

[Tomax]

ohh, this i like but why did they make it 3.75 lost a sale rite there from me. always liked ROM and Mask. if they make it 6" ill buy it for sure

[Tomax]

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Originally Posted by Thor Laserpunch

Perspective: MASK was poorly animated, thinly plotted drivel made to sell toys and was popular for like 2 years in the 80s.

all cartoons aim to sell their toys, even nowadays, whats your point?

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Originally Posted by Thor Laserpunch

Ok, care too much about dumb stuff. Does me no harm.

if you think its dumb, no one is forcing you to be here.