[Jason Abbadon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redx24

imho cap would have been on the side of registering. it just seems so out of charecter for him to think other wise. yes he's a sybol for freedom but i highly doubt anyone in their right minds can think freedom should overide the safty of others especially when ur talking bout people that can wipe out whole city blocks in minutes.

Not only that, but Cap is all about democracy- and democraticly elected officials with massive public support passed a law which thte President signed setting up the SHRA.

Cant get more american than that- if Cap wanted to repeal the law, why not go on TV and take his concerns to the people instead of starting his own little militia?

His actions made no sense.

[DogFashionDisco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Not only that, but Cap is all about democracy- and democraticly elected officials with massive public support passed a law which thte President signed setting up the SHRA.

Cant get more american than that- if Cap wanted to repeal the law, why not go on TV and take his concerns to the people instead of starting his own little militia?

His actions made no sense.

He is American, but that doesn't mean he has to do the same thing every time. Shit changes, the world changes, and unless people can adapt to that and find a way to protect ourselves without compromising our ideas and integrity than we will suffer from our mistakes. Think about that shit.

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Not only that, but Cap is all about democracy- and democraticly elected officials with massive public support passed a law which thte President signed setting up the SHRA.

Cant get more american than that- if Cap wanted to repeal the law, why not go on TV and take his concerns to the people instead of starting his own little militia?

His actions made no sense.

Sure it did. He is old fashioned. Some peoples personality take charge hard, a lot like Cap. If you remember, it was Maria Hill that made the first move of aggression toward Cap so then it all went down from there. Also if you do remember, near the end of Civil War, Captain America had the upper hand in the big battle and was about to finish off Stark. Then he came to his senses and realized that Tony was right and surrendered to the authorities.

I have always said this about things in life, that it takes something drastic to happen to make some people realize something simple. In this case Cap was about to brutally beat the shit out of Stark, one of his oldest friends and team mate. Realized that with him leading a resistance was causing more harm that good. I'll give it to Cap though, he stopped not because of his pride, but of the people. I don't know if Tony would of done that...

[CLASSIFIED]

I think that requiring super heroes to register is only going to negatively impact super heroes who already obey the law.

With my masked gun men analogy, if the gun men aren't doing anything else wrong than I'm cool with them walking around in guns and masks.

If more people had guns, their would be fewer gun related crimes committed.

An argument could be made comparing super heroes registering with teen operators of auto mobiles. You don't really want super heroes using powers they aren't proficient with because endangers the public at large.

If that's the case, then maybe getting caught using un-registered powers could be treated like driving with out a licence. You only get in trouble if you get caught doing something else wrong.

[Jason Abbadon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Sure it did. He is old fashioned. Some peoples personality take charge hard, a lot like Cap. If you remember, it was Maria Hill that made the first move of aggression toward Cap so then it all went down from there. Also if you do remember, near the end of Civil War, Captain America had the upper hand in the big battle and was about to finish off Stark. Then he came to his senses and realized that Tony was right and surrendered to the authorities.

I have always said this about things in life, that it takes something drastic to happen to make some people realize something simple. In this case Cap was about to brutally beat the shit out of Stark, one of his oldest friends and team mate. Realized that with him leading a resistance was causing more harm that good. I'll give it to Cap though, he stopped not because of his pride, but of the people. I don't know if Tony would of done that...

Cap only came to his senses when a cop and paramedics grabbed him because he was completely out of control- he was going to keep fighting as the whole city burned and for what? Because he thought he was above the law. That he and his pals should be free to operate outside the law and that they were answerable only to each other.
That makes his actions no better than a super villian.
That whole "we'll police ourselves" bit Cap says is saying just that.

Suddenly the law, democracy and the American way mean dick to Captain America?

Yeah.

That's why so many people say that CW was badly written or at least that everyone acted out of character.

And Tony and Reed would never have made a damn Thorenstien monster- not. ever.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Cap only came to his senses when a cop and paramedics grabbed him because he was completely out of control- he was going to keep fighting as the whole city burned and for what? Because he thought he was above the law. That he and his pals should be free to operate outside the law and that they were answerable only to each other.
That makes his actions no better than a super villian.
That whole "we'll police ourselves" bit Cap says is saying just that.

Suddenly the law, democracy and the American way mean dick to Captain America?

Yeah.

That's why so many people say that CW was badly written or at least that everyone acted out of character.

And Tony and Reed would never have made a damn Thorenstien monster- not. ever.

You're suggesting that Cap is purely motivated by law as opposed to ideals.

I believe the converse is true. I believe Cap is motivated by ideals.

If the law is a bad law, he isn't going to automatically enforce it.

Durring WW2, America wasn't fighting for an ideal Cap believed in.

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Not only that, but Cap is all about democracy- and democraticly elected officials with massive public support passed a law which thte President signed setting up the SHRA.

Cant get more american than that- if Cap wanted to repeal the law, why not go on TV and take his concerns to the people instead of starting his own little militia?

His actions made no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Cap only came to his senses when a cop and paramedics grabbed him because he was completely out of control- he was going to keep fighting as the whole city burned and for what? Because he thought he was above the law. That he and his pals should be free to operate outside the law and that they were answerable only to each other.
That makes his actions no better than a super villian.
That whole "we'll police ourselves" bit Cap says is saying just that.

Suddenly the law, democracy and the American way mean dick to Captain America?

Yeah.

That's why so many people say that CW was badly written or at least that everyone acted out of character.

And Tony and Reed would never have made a damn Thorenstien monster- not. ever.

That kind of answers your own question, did it not?

[Jason Abbadon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

You're suggesting that Cap is purely motivated by law as opposed to ideals.

I believe the converse is true. I believe Cap is motivated by ideals.

If the law is a bad law, he isn't going to automatically enforce it.

Durring WW2, America wasn't fighting for an ideal Cap believed in.

But he would not form some illegal militia to do...what exactly?
He made no move to change the law or appeal to the American populace (which might have done the trick- he's a popular guy)- instead he was just going to continue with superheroping as though nothing had changed....


pretty short-sighted.

Cap is the one that made it all personal- blaming Tony for a law that the people wanted and the President signed- Tony had dick to do with it and had been warning peope forever that shit was coming their way.

Stamford just gave the forces aligned against them the greenlight to move- in a very plausible way, Tony's actions prevented the Days of Futures Past sceneario wherein the Sentinels wipe out all costumed heroes and set up mutant concentration camps- Tony and Reed headed that off at the pass by getting the public to support Superheroes again, even if it was as government agents.

Now the MU is worse off than ever- Osborn is free (with the backing of both Hydra and AIM) and splitting public opinion on the Avengers and heroes in general, the world is still reeling from the total failure of heroes to protect them in Fear Itself and Steve is still playing like it's 1995.

Really, it's looking like Logan's X-Force idea is the only effective team out there.

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

But he would not form some illegal militia to do...what exactly?
He made no move to change the law or appeal to the American populace (which might have done the trick- he's a popular guy)- instead he was just going to continue with superheroping as though nothing had changed....


pretty short-sighted.

Cap is the one that made it all personal- blaming Tony for a law that the people wanted and the President signed- Tony had dick to do with it and had been warning peope forever that shit was coming their way.

Stamford just gave the forces aligned against them the greenlight to move- in a very plausible way, Tony's actions prevented the Days of Futures Past sceneario wherein the Sentinels wipe out all costumed heroes and set up mutant concentration camps- Tony and Reed headed that off at the pass by getting the public to support Superheroes again, even if it was as government agents.

Now the MU is worse off than ever- Osborn is free (with the backing of both Hydra and AIM) and splitting public opinion on the Avengers and heroes in general, the world is still reeling from the total failure of heroes to protect them in Fear Itself and Steve is still playing like it's 1995.

Really, it's looking like Logan's X-Force idea is the only effective team out there.

Remember, Cap is a warrior and is doing things the way he thought was right. Although he is completely wrong.

Tony Stark ftw =3.

[CLASSIFIED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

But he would not form some illegal militia to do...what exactly?
He made no move to change the law or appeal to the American populace (which might have done the trick- he's a popular guy)- instead he was just going to continue with superheroping as though nothing had changed.

Yeah, but isn't that what Cap is supposed to do?

The only thing that makes Cap's millitia illegal is the law. If he was doing the right thing before the law was put into place then Cap would continue to do the right thing after the law was put into place. The only difference would be the legality.

Just because something is legal/ illegal doesn't mean that it is right/ wrong.

[Jason Abbadon]

Cap could have gone on national TV like Hawkeye did- Clint said that Osborn's Dark Avengers were crimminals and that his team would keep fighting for the people, no matter what.

He got national attention- and if Cap had done it, he'd have had a platform to repeal the law...or at lest get the database part modified.
Or you know, trust in the people he's supposed to represent to do the right thing.

If nothing else, all those old WWII vets would have called their congressmen- geezers always vote!

[D00MTR0N]

Von Dooms of course.

[CLASSIFIED]

Cap leads by example and his actions speak louder than his words.

Clint is a brash loud mouth.

I think they both acted in character.

[Tiberius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

Cap leads by example and his actions speak louder than his words.

Clint is a brash loud mouth.

I think they both acted in character.

Dis' Dis' Dis'!

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLASSIFIED

If we are going to require that people register things like firearms, and automobiles and the like, then it seems a no-brainer that we would also require people to register their super powers.

That said, the question becomes why?

Maybe people shouldn't be required to register anything if the intent of registering said thing is to limmit the possibility of commiting a crime with said thing.

If that is the case, then having the crime be a crime seems enough legislation to me.

That's the same argument Tony made before he instigated the Reg act.

Be sure to read the Ironman issues before Civil War too when talking about who was in or out of character.

Frontlines also pointed out Tony was the one who may have 'accidentally' made stamford happen by pointing the new warriors in that direction to where the criminals were staying. This was his plan to push the legislation through to put him in power. Granted it may have happened bigger than he planned, but he wanted a massive super brawl in the middle of suburbia to give his plan momentum.

Cap was in character because there is a Civil Militia part of the american ideal for when the government enacts something that's bad for its people. Though that's supposed to be when a dictator or tyranny happens. Granted it got out of hand, hence his surrender to fight from the inside to plead his case but he was shot.

Sue switched sides because of what her husband was doing to their friends and she couldn't agree with the negative zone prison.

Tony Stark committed an illegal act by destroying the database. If he followed the letter of the law Osborn would have the list. Hence why he was a fugitive and he erased his brain. He made a lot of stupid choices not thinking about what would happen if he were removed.

I'm anti-powers-reg, but both sides really did some stupid crap when all is said and done.

And yes, Cap fights for an Ideal. Freedom, truth, and justice. He fights for what America is supposed to represent. Just because a law is passed doesn't mean he won't object to it. As someone else said, just because it's law, doesn't make it right. He was a concientious objecter, but then Maria Hill acted on him and forced his hand. In the military you can disregard an order if you view it as unlawful or destructive without reason(which usually gets taken eventually to an aritcle 32 hearing). That's what cap did at first. Now in a time of war, that gets muddled. Then you can jailed or killed for not following an order even if that order is to shoot and kill innocent people. In essence that's what this escalated into. The legislation declared war on unregistered heroes.

Stark on the other hand wanted to control it all. He thought the reg was a good idea after what happened in his series prior to civil war, but he was too arrogant in thinking he could control it forever. One of his many downfalls alongside his pride. In the end it was his arrogance in this that gave Hammer all his tech and made him a fugitive by erasing the data. Even his brain became part of US property thanks to his arrogance and abuse of funds. Yes, he also helped write the legislation and pushed it through. In his series prior to civil war he decided the reg act was best for everyone and pushed gears so it would happen thinking he knew best. (His entire speech about guns are registered, so why aren't powers in the issues building up to civil war.)

To be fair though. It's Marvel. They'll find a way to rationalize whatever story. Making sense isn't a priority. (*Cough* Reed's Rationalization. *Cough*)

As for X-Force. That's an entirely different debate. Remender does fantastic on the title because he balances the moral dilemma, ditto to Yost/Kyle at first. Other areas of it are them going too far and being sociopaths(Fear Itself: Uncanny X-Force). Their way isn't the best way either, but that goes back to that age old question of should batman kill the joker which is best answered in the Red Hood Movie.

[Jason Abbadon]

Total agreement on Remender- thank goodness he's taking over the train wreck that is Secret Avengers!
He's been awesome on X-Force and venom and SA will make it a trifecta of titles I'll snap up every month.

As to Frontline- they say themselves that it's all speculation- and Joe Q said that Stark never did any of that shit- that it was pushing the character too far into villian terriory- making him into Ozmandius from Watchmen.

The FF went to Washington first and derailed the SHRA with Reed testifying before Congress- possibly as a result of Illumaniti discussions on how to stop it.

Then Dissassembled happened, and then M day, which was a worldwide shocker, leading to scores of suddenly de-powered mutants getting hunted down and the public even more unsure and scared of powered people and the violence they seem to attract.

In Spider Man, Tony is shown secretely breaking laws to prevent the SHRA from happening, but he makes crystal clear in Illumaniti that no matter what happens, it's probably inevitible- he speculates that it'll be Spidey with his less than stellar reputation that will tip the scales, so he takes Peter under his wing, tries to polish his reputation, gives him a new costume to seperate him from his negative image, etc.

Before Stamford, Tony was trying hard to avoid the inevitible- not cause it.

Quote:

Yes, he also helped write the legislation and pushed it through

What issue is this stated in? Because Maria Hill was under Presidential order to bring Cap in. Also, while the Marvel writers seem to not understand basic civics, it takes both the House and the Senate to propose leglislation and then the President has to sign it into law- considering the sorry state of Tony's political reputation after Disassembled, it's pretty farfetched to think of Tony crafting leglislation anyone would take seriously, much less support.

Events from Avengers: Disassembled was the real start toward SHRA- Wanda making Tony act drunk before the UN, causing him to lose his Defense Secretary position, the "Kree attack" , Vision's destruction, etc...leading to the Avengers disbanding and public faith in heroes plummetting.

But as jerky as the CW storyline is in places, the so callled "Age of Heroes" was far worse- starting with the President somwhow abolishing the SHRA- which is just not how laws work.
And there was no big heroic anything - once Steve returns, he suddenly decides to make his own X-Force team- completely casual with killing- a huge departure from his character's morals to the point where he's a whole different character.
He also decides that, since fifty states worth of super teams barely managed to stop an invasion, he should do away with all that- and not make a new SHIELD, instead decalaring "The Avengers will protect the world".

Yeah.

His Avengers- all twenty or so of them- sure failed in an EPIC way in Fear Itself.
Steve has screwed the pooch far worse than Nick, Maria or Tony ever did.
Nothing screams "EPIC FAILURE!" like the United States capitol getting destroyed.

No hotlinking. - Toyark Staff

Steve's just...not a good leader. Not for big things. Perfect for a six man Avengers team...but he's no Nick Fury.

[Tiberius]

Extremely good read!

I love this thread of mine. I love hearing peoples thoughts on an old-ish Marvel Event.

Btw, coolest armour imo

No hotlinking. - Toyark Staff

[Jason Abbadon]

Hell yes that's the best armor!
I'm going to repaint the Arctic Armor fig into those colors- it's a much better sculpt of that armor than the MU Extremis fig!
No hotlinking. - Toyark Staff
Maybe I'll keep the MU head- we'll see.

[Greenskar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

As to Frontline- they say themselves that it's all speculation- and Joe Q said that Stark never did any of that shit- that it was pushing the character too far into villian terriory- making him into Ozmandius from Watchmen.

*Snip*

Then Dissassembled happened, and then M day, which was a worldwide shocker, leading to scores of suddenly de-powered mutants getting hunted down and the public even more unsure and scared of powered people and the violence they seem to attract.

In Spider Man, Tony is shown secretely breaking laws to prevent the SHRA from happening, but he makes crystal clear in Illumaniti that no matter what happens, it's probably inevitible- he speculates that it'll be Spidey with his less than stellar reputation that will tip the scales, so he takes Peter under his wing, tries to polish his reputation, gives him a new costume to seperate him from his negative image, etc.

Before Stamford, Tony was trying hard to avoid the inevitible- not cause it.

What issue is this stated in? Because Maria Hill was under Presidential order to bring Cap in. Also, while the Marvel writers seem to not understand basic civics, it takes both the House and the Senate to propose leglislation and then the President has to sign it into law- considering the sorry state of Tony's political reputation after Disassembled, it's pretty farfetched to think of Tony crafting leglislation anyone would take seriously, much less support.

Events from Avengers: Disassembled was the real start toward SHRA- Wanda making Tony act drunk before the UN, causing him to lose his Defense Secretary position, the "Kree attack" , Vision's destruction, etc...leading to the Avengers disbanding and public faith in heroes plummetting.

But as jerky as the CW storyline is in places, the so callled "Age of Heroes" was far worse- starting with the President somwhow abolishing the SHRA- which is just not how laws work.
And there was no big heroic anything - once Steve returns, he suddenly decides to make his own X-Force team- completely casual with killing- a huge departure from his character's morals to the point where he's a whole different character.
He also decides that, since fifty states worth of super teams barely managed to stop an invasion, he should do away with all that- and not make a new SHIELD, instead decalaring "The Avengers will protect the world".

Yeah.

His Avengers- all twenty or so of them- sure failed in an EPIC way in Fear Itself.
Steve has screwed the pooch far worse than Nick, Maria or Tony ever did.
Nothing screams "EPIC FAILURE!" like the United States capitol getting destroyed.
No hotlinking. - Toyark Staff

Steve's just...not a good leader. Not for big things. Perfect for a six man Avengers team...but he's no Nick Fury.

Excellent argument. And completely agree about Cap. He's a great field leader in battle, but leave the theater of operations to the real leaders. I didn't think he deserved a spot in the Illuminati but that's just me.

I love me some Tony, he's definitely one of my favorite characters in the Marvel Universe but I have to be honest. If I must really be forced to take sides during this Civil War, I'll just head for the stars...



"That kind of puts the squabbles here in perspective, don't you think?" -Nova

[Jason Abbadon]

Yeah, Nova really put the idiocy of CW into perspective- but really, all of Earth's heroes were outclassed by the events of Annihilation- they did not have Thor or anyone that would have turned the tide.

Man, I miss Nova and Starlord.
Here: a pic to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside:
No hotlinking. - Toyark Staff

[Snowflakian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Abbadon

Total agreement on Remender- thank goodness he's taking over the train wreck that is Secret Avengers!
He's been awesome on X-Force and venom and SA will make it a trifecta of titles I'll snap up every month.

As to Frontline- they say themselves that it's all speculation- and Joe Q said that Stark never did any of that shit- that it was pushing the character too far into villian terriory- making him into Ozmandius from Watchmen.

Wouldn't be the first time Tony's gone evil. Prior to Heroes Reborn he went all nuts too.

Like I said though, in the issues prior to civil war of Ironman they cover his perspective and actions. While Joe Q may have said one thing, that doesn't mean the stories don't suggest another. There are a lot of things creators say that then don't get reflected on the pages. Now in Tony's defense, he didn't know outside factors had increased Nitro's explosive power. Trust what's on the pages though. Marvel has a bad habit of "Look at what I'm saying, not what I'm printing."

As for Rogers and killing, that's a varied topic. He's not the punisher, but he's not anti-killing either. Generally speaking it's only in a time of war he kills though. Otherwise he uses non-lethal action. SA balances back and forth from this. They use non-lethal at times, and lethal at other times depending on who they are fighting.

Overall though, it's marvel. At the end of the day you just need to remember these are the same people that have the mantra "Don't let characterization get in the way of a good story."

And to be blunt, the SHRA was Marvel's attempt at parodying the Patriot Act.

[bmorr]

Cap sure as shit likes picking up guns these days though lol. He tried to kill cable with his own gun. And Fear Itself is a good example also. Well he did have his shield broken, so theres that. But yeah, after reading comics for so long, consistent characterization is as rare as diamonds. Tony Stark has been written like hes been on a rollercoaster. He goes from this douchebag during civil war to this.....reformed self aware douchebag in the current comics.

[Tiberius]

Still need to read the Imperative. Then play some MVC3 and play as Nova and RR.

[Kaewin]

Well I have read it all and everyone has good points. I guess I am the neutral guy who hid in the basement at the time. Cap did have his bad moment and so did Tony and little can be done about that. I do blame Joe Quesada for the entire mess.

[Exodus]

I'm with Wolverine and his X-Men :P hehe sorry reading Schism right now...