[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingzero

Sarcasm to my sarcasm? How quaint.

Considering that until now it's really been your only contribution to this discussion, I thought it appropriate.

Quote:

And people who complain will always complain. Color, height, scale, articulation, packaging, characters. Pick one

True. It's been said before (in this thread too), but it bears repeating.

[wingzero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Considering that until now it's really been your only contribution to this discussion, I thought it appropriate.



True. It's been said before (in this thread too), but it bears repeating.

Actually, I did respond earlier that no lawyer in their right mind would take a class action against Hasbro. So I have contributed to this discussion. So more sarcasm too!

[kylactus]

well as the consumer we have a right to complain, It dose make us all look a little bitchy at times, but that's just because were on a "bitch-gripe-and complain" type thread. If your here you're probably a fan of the marvel lines (ML/MU) overall. the things they have done right are innumerable, there a great company with a billion moving parts that no one here probably has a total grasp of. That said they do have those "what are they thinking" moments. and as a collector it gets frustrating. I don't believe that they have no respect for collectors. Especially in lines like MU and ML that are geared completely to collectors.(children dint buy a 15$ action figure that has only appeared in an obscure comic ten years ago) and in this economy anyone who makes anything will tell you, you NEED every customer you can get! in this case especially. the adults with deeper pockets than children will buy the big ticket items and in my case (as with MANY of you) every figure they put out. I'm pretty sure we collectors make up a bigger piece of Hasbro's pie than most estimate. Hell I'm pretty sure I put Vonner's Kids through college myself.

[MGTAJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylactus

well as the consumer we have a right to complain, It dose make us all look a little bitchy at times, but that's just because were on a "bitch-gripe-and complain" type thread. If your here you're probably a fan of the marvel lines (ML/MU) overall. the things they have done right are innumerable, there a great company with a billion moving parts that no one here probably has a total grasp of. That said they do have those "what are they thinking" moments. and as a collector it gets frustrating. I don't believe that they have no respect for collectors. Especially in lines like MU and ML that are geared completely to collectors.(children dint buy a 15$ action figure that has only appeared in an obscure comic ten years ago) and in this economy anyone who makes anything will tell you, you NEED every customer you can get! in this case especially. the adults with deeper pockets than children will buy the big ticket items and in my case (as with MANY of you) every figure they put out. I'm pretty sure we collectors make up a bigger piece of Hasbro's pie than most estimate. Hell I'm pretty sure I put Vonner's Kids through college myself.

To the parts I've bolded, the thing these days us that parents are more likely to pay the full retail for items (especially the helicarriers etc) compared to collectors who often state that they'll wait for clearance. Someone here has already mentioned that point too.
Collectors don't make up a bigger slice of the pie, this is more or less a cold hard fact. The overwhelming sales come from those buying for or on the behalf of children. The parents of kids reading comics and the grandparents/relatives/etc buying it casually for a kid because it looks like something a kid will like.

This is really reaching the point of repetition, though. There are those of us here who see and accept the world as round and those bitchy collectors who are still adamant that it's flat

[kylactus]

I tend not to agree with folks who don't appreciate the scope of the collector market, I know the concept of "Action Figures" in general is traditionally a children's market, but I would propose the demographic has changed significantly in the last 20 years. the children of the 80's and 90's have grown up and kept there nostalgic interests, but (as a parent) I've noticed a marked lack of enthusiasm in the younger generation as far as non electronic toys. If the traditional theory holds then why, in the case of marvel universe for example, dose regular Spiderman shelf warm wile you cant find a Bag Head version anywhere? Your telling me a "Child" opted for the obscure comic reference over the guy he recognizes? Is there some kid drooling on a solid vision wile I'm on Ebay paying 200$ How many children have a case of Bowen statues on there wall? and I'd be impressed if you can find a kid these days that regularly reads actual comics and is not exposed to the characters through "dummed down" cartoons or video games. The reality is comics are now written for an older audience with more mature subject matter and some fairly extreme and graphic violence. Everyone seems to dismiss how much of the market the collector represents off hand and I'd say in years past, like the early 80's when there were like 50 guys keeping He-Man figs in there package it was true, but again I'd say there's more of us than you think. and I believe these toy companies are well aware of our presents.

[Iceman]

I think that the adult collector market is quite large. There is proof of that with all the adult focused lines we get and statues and random expensive junk. That doesn't always mean that a line will have a lot of adult buyers though. There are a lot of kid lines out there and when it comes to Marvel the stuff that seems to warm the most is what didn't attract the collector market, as in movie lines like assemblers or Thor. I'm sure there is more to it than that but when it comes to figures it doesn't seem the junks sells well to kids (or their parents) and we don't even look twice at it. I know the figure lines that seem to be mostly targeted at kids are almost always in stock at stores where stuff like MU and ML actually can be hard to come by. You don't have any trouble finding TMNT, Power Rangers, or whatever the newest fad cartoon is and know many of those lines aren't making tons of money. Those lines have much fewer characters and seem to ship in enough numbers while MU, certain Transformers, and a lot of the Star Wars vintage collection stuff gets sold pretty fast (EP. 1 wave excluded). Clearly the buyers are out there, in every city, if a company can attract them. They just need to keep kids and their parents buying as well, which doesn't seem to be a big problem for MU.

[trebleshot]

No, that's inconclusive speculation at best. Without sales figures broken down by age group and reasons for purchase, there's no way to know for certain.

But I'd say that if the adult collector market were as big as some are saying, then the primary audience that toy companies target with their products would not be specific children's age groups and demographics.

From my understanding, the Japanese toy market has a much, much larger adult collector segment - which is why stuff like SH Figuarts, Encore, and Masterpiece exist at all. I do believe we are also headed in that direction, but I think we're still years, if not decades, away from reaching it.

[Masterless]

I personally do not know nor care much for the statistics and the numbers within the 'age group' market but I am grateful that there are is a plethora of adult lines out there for the collectors. To tangent off a bit, lines like Playarts Kai, Hot Toys, Revoltech, Kotobukiya, Bowen, etc. etc. isn't something I would THINK the average parent would buy their child for a 'toy'(I will use the term 'child' for the age group that still plays with their toys like I did: making sound affects, throwing them around to hit each other, etc. etc.). I wouldn't spend that much money on my child just to find out the next day that the said toy/statue is shattered in pieces and s/he is already bored of it.

Going back to Hasbro and the main topic as of right now, again I can't say for sure which demographic MU and ML targets and enamors, all I know is that I can't freaking find ML waves for the life of me in my local target or walmart. I have to resort to Amazon or Ebay. I fathom it's a combination of both parents and collectors that are eating up the shelves of the ones that are getting away from me.

With that being said, when Hasbro took over Toybiz's job, the first few I saw were the Blob series, White (drag)Queen and Movie 'Phoenix' and my god were they were atrocious! Maybe because I was scrutinizing the face too much and missed out on some good articulation or what not but still. Red Hulk, Brood, and Ares series were redemption in my eyes and the return of the Marvel Legends may have raised a few 'why' in my eyes(mainly with WHO they were using for the BAF notion), but they are worth my time. I can't complain much with Hasbro. Though the new Wolverine toys are a bit... dejecting.

[flaccideagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

From my understanding, the Japanese toy market has a much, much larger adult collector segment - which is why stuff like SH Figuarts, Encore, and Masterpiece exist at all. I do believe we are also headed in that direction, but I think we're still years, if not decades, away from reaching it.

In my opinion we're already there too. We just have a different taste, more focus on movie and comic merch than animation and model kits, perceived value, and a different price range, under $100. There's a lot of other factors at play on that, like profit margins and scale of production, that combine. I don't think it's that much bigger anymore, their market is definitely in the higher-priced items you mention, but also, they buy far far less per year on average and specialize a lot more than us yanks do. As for who buys more, adults or kids, one look at the playground shows far more iPads than Marvel Legends figures, to me.

NECA, Mattycollector.com, Marvel Select, Sideshow- these are all geared and marketed towards adults. People outside the US collect these too and have as much trouble (if not more)than Americans do getting Japanese imports.

The Japanese market gets skewed as well because so much of it is exported to other countries. At my local comic shop in Spain, it is far, far easier to get Bandai chogokin than it is to get any Marvel Universe figures. And the ones that do show up are around EU30-40 a piece (That's a little over US$40-50 each) so it's a tough call: 3.75 MU Spider-Man figure for $40, or a Bandai Super Robot Chogokin for $50. You can see why they might be more popular with some folks: diecast amazing figure vs. average action figure .

I think in a sense some Japanese collectors focus on one thing a lot more- say, vintage 80's Transformers, or Ultraman vinyls- and don't stray for decades, as well as skew towards the edges (a lot of 18-25 year olds, and over 40 year olds); while American collectors tend to be 18-25 and stay in for a few years, are more interested in new products and then get out; or are older (30+) and this crowd seems much more into vintage items. They specialize, we tend to get a little of everything. The vast majority of collectors I met in the early 2000's of comics and Star Wars are completely out of the hobby, while the vast majority of specialist Japanese guys I know and buy from, they're still collecting and have no intentions to stop, partly because they're only getting one or two things a year for many years, so it's not as a moneypit as it is to try to get everything all at once like many US guys do; or they collect only one line and are hardcore true completist, and don't collect anything else (for example, one guy I buy from for almost a decade now, he himself only collects for himself Megatron toys, no other TFs.)

It's also worth noting in some countries in the 70's and 80's, cartoons for kids was almost exclusively Japanese shows translated. So the 25-40 aged crowd wouldn't have the same nostalgia or desire for Spider-Man or Superman figures that I have as an 80's American youth with Superfriends or Spider-Man & His Amazing Friends on the air every day. Someone from France may have the same connection to Grendizer, and Mazinger is like a national icon in Spain. So it's not just Japan buying this stuff, but America, Brazil, France, etc and not so many exporting the US stuff anymore. It's like combining fans of G1 Transformers, He-Man, and Voltron all together- obviously those numbers will be bigger than say, Marvel Legends collectors.

[Iceman]

I think we are already there in terms of numbers. There are a lot of collectors out there but our population is also much more spread out. Kids should still be the main focus but adults make buying decisions for them and even the average mom looks at cheaply made crap and thinks its overpriced. They try to steer kids towards things they think look like a better buy. Just overall numbers there are a lot more adult collectors than people want to give credit to. I don't think they are the driving force for most toy lines but they are a big chunk of certain ones. I think you can look at the figures that companies like Hasbro short pack because they kids won't want them and see they aren't meeting the demand of adult market. Look at the EU Star Wars stuff that's impossible to find or figures like Nova, Baghead, Deadpool, etc. Adult collectors and scalpers are buying those up. In contrast a figure like Astonishing Wolverine is wanted by pretty much everyone but that was never hard to find yet sold well. Maybe Hasbro wants their chase figures or maybe the boss just wants as little risk as possible and anything that isn't known to them gets shorted.

[trebleshot]

A couple of things:

1. Hasbro is a US-based company, therefore they plan around the US market. Adult collectors in other countries wouldn't really affect anything in that regard. Now as far as its regional divisions in other countries (like Hasbro Canada), they plan around their own markets, but are always dependent on the main branch in the US.

2. The big difference between the US and Japanese markets is that there are very few children who buy and play with toys in Japan - they have video games and mobile devices. Japanese toy makers tend to cater to, and make toys for, adult collectors because that's their primary market now. They don't expect parents to buy an SH Figuarts or Play Arts Kai figure for their five-year-old.

That's simply not the case with the US market, no matter how much people like to think otherwise. I am a parent of two small children. I know several other people who are parents of small children. Trust me when I say they play with toys just as much if not more than video games. I have a room full of my kids' toys (most of which I would have never bought for myself). My parental friends have rooms full of their kids' toys. Most of them are not collectors by any stretch.

Now there's definitely a switch point I have noticed that appears when kids reach a certain age range. At that point, they either continue buying toys and become collectors like us, or they drop it in lieu of other interests. Some might flip flop or return to toys later on, but during that pre-teen thru high school time frame, it looks to be one or the other.

3. Part of this misconception (IMHO) of adult collectors being a larger market than it is, is those of us who frequent these boards tend to interact more with other fans and collectors and not so much people outside of the hobby (when it comes to toy buying or shopping).

Bottom line, as stated by Hasbro on numerous occasions and conventions, is that they have a specific age range that they target when designing a toy line (IIRC something like 5 or 6 to 12-year-olds). TPTB at Hasbro have said that they know adult collectors are out there and they try to do things for that market when they can work it into the plan, but ultimately they're aiming for that kids' group.

[/wall of text]

TL;DR
Nobody knows for certain, because Hasbro doesn't release sales figures for individual lines or toys and retailers don't keep track of who's buying what, why they're buying it AND for whom. Loyalty programs kind of do the first one, but not the other two (which is the crux of this discussion).

[flaccideagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

A couple of things:

1. Hasbro is a US-based company, therefore they plan around the US market. Adult collectors in other countries wouldn't really affect anything in that regard. Now as far as its regional divisions in other countries (like Hasbro Canada), they plan around their own markets, but are always dependent on the main branch in the US.

They're actually one of(if not the) biggest toy maker in the world, with a global presence. If you look at what they offer in the US vs. other countries, there are some big differences in what is offered. The stuff we adult collectors focus on is the stuff more oriented towards the US market. Adult collectors in the EU might be a bigger thing there as they are significantly more expensive in those countries, and aren't the "impulse buys" they are for adults and kids alike in the US. They're way too expensive to be playthings nowadays there, and kids generally have zero interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

2. The big difference between the US and Japanese markets is that there are very few children who buy and play with toys in Japan - they have video games and mobile devices. Japanese toy makers tend to cater to, and make toys for, adult collectors because that's their primary market now. They don't expect parents to buy an SH Figuarts or Play Arts Kai figure for their five-year-old.

I don't know about that at all. There are a lot of the same, popular toys offered for kids as in the US and EU. For all ages, and they're pretty popular. Far fewer children are playing with toys now regardless of country. I don't have kids, but every time I'm on an airplane, at someone's house, far more iPads than Transformers are in the kids hands. Everyone's experience will be different. One of my friends doesn't let his kid touch electronics, video games or TV so they of course have lots of toys. Another, has never owned an action figure. The Japanese lines you mentioned are aimed at adults, just like the US ones I mentioned earlier are, and are better compared to Sideshow or NECA offerings than mass-market like Hasbro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Now there's definitely a switch point I have noticed that appears when kids reach a certain age range. At that point, they either continue buying toys and become collectors like us, or they drop it in lieu of other interests. Some might flip flop or return to toys later on, but during that pre-teen thru high school time frame, it looks to be one or the other.

I'd have to differ on that. You're right about kids dropping stuff, but I think you're skewing toy collectors a little young. Most collectors I've seen, since the 90's if not earlier, they start in their late-teens, early twenties, and most tucker out around 30ish, when they again "move on". Same for comics, and lots of other hobbies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

3. Part of this misconception (IMHO) of adult collectors being a larger market than it is, is those of us who frequent these boards tend to interact more with other fans and collectors and not so much people outside of the hobby (when it comes to toy buying or shopping).

Very true, Monster High anyone? Far more people buying them than say, Marvel Legends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Bottom line, as stated by Hasbro on numerous occasions and conventions, is that they have a specific age range that they target when designing a toy line (IIRC something like 5 or 6 to 12-year-olds). TPTB at Hasbro have said that they know adult collectors are out there and they try to do things for that market when they can work it into the plan, but ultimately they're aiming for that kids' group.

You're right, but this years 6-inch line of Star Wars (not to mention calling it "Black Series"- 6yo kids do not get the signifigance of the name like an adult would ) and the new Mission line indicates a 2-pronged shift rather than the "all in one for everyone" approach of the past. As evidenced by walking into a toys r us, in action figures, the market is slowly shifting to a collector-driven one, while children tend to buy other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Nobody knows for certain, because Hasbro doesn't release sales figures for individual lines or toys and retailers don't keep track of who's buying what, why they're buying it AND for whom. Loyalty programs kind of do the first one, but not the other two (which is the crux of this discussion).

I'm willing to wager they do significant research on all three. I think both sides of this argument are right and wrong. There's a switch going on in the hobby the last few years- kids are drifting away from physical playthings, adults are drifting towards. The things kids buy are not the same things adults buy like it was in the 90's. Hasbro and the other big players aren't focused on people who want Tony Stark in Street Clothes, or Deadpool in Christmas Outfit, as they aren't anywhere near the force they think they are, and that makes them mad. In years past, they've taken the approach of trying to sell the most of any one product to the most people, adult or kid, and tried to make things for the last decade that clearly rode that line, and it was good for both. I think a lot of people look at the Japanese market and think it's just the Japanese in Japan adult collector people buying that stuff, or that it is the Promised Land where toy collecting is commonplace among adults, but it's simply not true. We hear about Walmarts and Targets and BBTS and their exclusives and numbers, but little about French electronics stores or UK grocery shops, or other chain stores or retails of this stuff around the world, which also push the little plastic dudes we love so much, sometimes in similar numbers, both US and Japanese alike...

[Goldengreg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

2. The big difference between the US and Japanese markets is that there are very few children who buy and play with toys in Japan - they have video games and mobile devices.

I agree with you.
It's true that japanese toy comapnies are struggling more than before; toys disappeared from convinience stores several years ago, and you can feel that there is less and less shows for kids; but they still exists. In Japan, a cartoon or a sentai show (=power-rangersy live action) is produced and aired by sponsors, wich means that Bandai and/or Takara-Tomy (Hasbro) still gains money from them but it's not the anime-liveaction galore you had until the end of the 90es.
When you go to a dpt store in Japan, you have a distinct area of toys for kids and toys for adults. The good thing is, they coexist very naturally. The "sofubi" (soft-vinyl) toys of monsters and heroes for the kids, and the complex-articulated ones for the grown-ups
There's also something I see very oftenly in Japan: when I go to my favorties second-hands toy stores with vintage metal sentai toys of the 70es, I see more and more people in their 40es with their kids watching the incredibly pricey items and tell "I played with this one when I was your age".
As a toy lover, I'm always "awwww" (and just after I'm "what, you trashed your Bioman robot you stupid xxx" )

[Iceman]

What about all those capsule toys in Japan? I thought those were everywhere and mostly what the kids bought as opposed to going to stores.

[trebleshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flaccideagle

They're actually one of(if not the) biggest toy maker in the world, with a global presence. If you look at what they offer in the US vs. other countries, there are some big differences in what is offered. The stuff we adult collectors focus on is the stuff more oriented towards the US market. Adult collectors in the EU might be a bigger thing there as they are significantly more expensive in those countries, and aren't the "impulse buys" they are for adults and kids alike in the US. They're way too expensive to be playthings nowadays there, and kids generally have zero interest.

And as I said, Hasbro plans toy lines for the US market, not other countries. Yes, they sell toys all over the world - most successful toy companies do that. But Hasbro's toy lines are always done for the US market first. Then their regional sub-dvisions (Hasbro Canada, Hasbro UK, Hasbro Germany, etc) plan around that based on their own market needs. Which is one of the main reasons why some countries don't get some of the releases in a toy line that the US does.

Takara-Tomy does the same thing. They make toys for the Japanese market, even though the toys are sold around the world through importers and online re-sellers.

Quote:

I don't know about that at all. There are a lot of the same, popular toys offered for kids as in the US and EU. For all ages, and they're pretty popular.

Well, of course anyone can buy a toy. My point is Hasbro actually aims for a far younger crowd than adult collectors.

Quote:

Far fewer children are playing with toys now regardless of country. I don't have kids, but every time I'm on an airplane, at someone's house, far more iPads than Transformers are in the kids hands. Everyone's experience will be different. One of my friends doesn't let his kid touch electronics, video games or TV so they of course have lots of toys. Another, has never owned an action figure.

I don't doubt your experiences, but as you said mine are different. And the only reason I mentioned it is to counter the "kids don't play with toys anymore - only adults buy them" hyperbole that seems to crop up whenever these discussions arise.

Quote:

The Japanese lines you mentioned are aimed at adults, just like the US ones I mentioned earlier are, and are better compared to Sideshow or NECA offerings than mass-market like Hasbro.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned those Japanese toy companies specifically as a counterpoint or contrast to Hasbro, not as a comparison.

Quote:

I'd have to differ on that. You're right about kids dropping stuff, but I think you're skewing toy collectors a little young. Most collectors I've seen, since the 90's if not earlier, they start in their late-teens, early twenties, and most tucker out around 30ish, when they again "move on". Same for comics, and lots of other hobbies.

I guess I was using the term "collect" more loosely than you, but I agree. I wouldn't say an eight-year-old is a collector in the same vein as a twenty-something. I don't expect them to have an MISB collection, set up dioramas, buy multiples of the same toy due to variants. But if they buy toys or get them as gifts, in one sense they're collecting toys. If there's a better term to describe it, I'll be happy to use it instead.

Quote:

You're right, but this years 6-inch line of Star Wars (not to mention calling it "Black Series"- 6yo kids do not get the signifigance of the name like an adult would ) and the new Mission line indicates a 2-pronged shift rather than the "all in one for everyone" approach of the past. As evidenced by walking into a toys r us, in action figures, the market is slowly shifting to a collector-driven one, while children tend to buy other things.

And I feel that's the only way for them to move forward and continue to be successful. Unfortunately for us, it means prices are going to continue to go up, up, up, while the quality and engineering/articulation may stay relatively the same for quite some time.

Quote:

I'm willing to wager they do significant research on all three.

I don't see how that's possible, considering Hasbro sells toys by the case (not individually) and most mass-market retailers do not keep track of statistics on individual toys, such as the age of the buyers and why they are buying a particular toy or toys.

Oh, I'm sure they do marketing surveys and the like to gauge interest as part of their R&D process. But that also means they would already have a target demographic in mind when they conduct the research.

Even still, it does nothing to show them the demographic breakdown of the groups who actually buy the toys at retail. Which is why I say it's all speculation on who is the larger purchasing group: parents/kids or collectors. Well, at least until someone conducts an exit interview with everyone who buys a Hasbro toy.

(And I'm sure the Venn diagram of those interview stats will show some overlap since some collectors are parents, such as myself).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

What about all those capsule toys in Japan? I thought those were everywhere and mostly what the kids bought as opposed to going to stores.

That's a whole different level of discussion. If we include that in this convo, then we'd also have to bring in all the other toys and knick-knacks sold in gum ball and other assorted vending machines in the US and other markets as well. Because those are the domestic equivalent of Japanese capsule toys. The only difference I see is that the capsule toys are arguably of better quality.

[Iceman]

It was my impression that people bought a lot of stuff from vending machines, not just cheap stuff. A .25 or .75 gumball toy can't be compared to the $5-$10 items you can get out if a vending machine in Japan. The only similarity is the stand alone dispensing device but otherwise it's worlds apart. A wall of capsule vending machines is comparable to the toy aisle a Walmart for them.

[trebleshot]

I wouldn't go that far. Capsule toys are just as random as gum ball machines. At least with a toy aisle in Walmart, you can see exactly what you're buying (unless it's blind-bagged stuff like minifigs). That's why I don't think they should be included in this particular discussion - there's nothing really to compare it with in the US.

We'd have better luck dividing by zero.

EDIT: Besides, that's the Japanese market. We're talking about Hasbro, who doesn't have a branch in Japan (they have a deal with Takara-Tomy about that which started with Transformers).

[flaccideagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

And as I said, Hasbro plans toy lines for the US market, not other countries. Yes, they sell toys all over the world - most successful toy companies do that. But Hasbro's toy lines are always done for the US market first. Then their regional sub-dvisions (Hasbro Canada, Hasbro UK, Hasbro Germany, etc) plan around that based on their own market needs. Which is one of the main reasons why some countries don't get some of the releases in a toy line that the US does.

But they do get others that the US doesn't sometimes. Mattel for example, offers Max Steel, which is huge in South America, just huge. That's just a popular example that you can see for yourself; it's just not sold in the US, at least in any numbers. Neither of us work for Hasbro, and they don't give out information on how exactly they plan toys, so we can't say what they plan for or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

Well, of course anyone can buy a toy. My point is Hasbro actually aims for a far younger crowd than adult collectors.

My point is, they aim for both- or else they would have just gone with the 5 POA figures, like the Dollar General ones, across the board. I get what's being said, and I agree: it's not all focused towards collectors, and often we get too fanciful of our actual buying power. But there's been a clear courting of both with Hasbro for many years now, it's only really been the last two years where there's been a split- two lines, one for kids, one for collectors, whereas before they tried to do one product for both audiences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

I don't doubt your experiences, but as you said mine are different. And the only reason I mentioned it is to counter the "kids don't play with toys anymore - only adults buy them" hyperbole that seems to crop up whenever these discussions arise.

You're absolutely right. It's an annoying statement, but for many people, it's a fair one to make. Perhaps your situation might be unique, especially since you collect toys? Think of it this way for a second: if for the last five years, Hasbro has been pursuing other avenues of making money, from buying TV networks, to funding big-budget summer blockbuster movies. Why would a company that for decades has been pretty much strictly toys, move into media in such a billion dollar way? Surely if kids were buying toys by the boatload, they would be putting the money in that direction? I don't like that it's going in that direction, but hey, it is, whether I like it or not, you know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

I guess I was using the term "collect" more loosely than you, but I agree. I wouldn't say an eight-year-old is a collector in the same vein as a twenty-something. I don't expect them to have an MISB collection, set up dioramas, buy multiples of the same toy due to variants. But if they buy toys or get them as gifts, in one sense they're collecting toys. If there's a better term to describe it, I'll be happy to use it instead.

I would use "buying toys" in the cases you mentioned. We've all seen it before: a young collector gets online and makes claims such as "I've been collecting for fifteen years" And they're fifteen years old! Or someone rediscovers their childhood toys in their twenties, and then makes claims that they're "a lifelong collector." There's no definition, to be fair, its just a pet peeve of mine, because it obscures truth, in order to give someone "cred" that they don't necessarily deserve. It destroys honesty and fidelity; it's ok to be a young collector, who isn't sure, or asks questions. It's not ok to try to puff yourself to make yourself bigger. There's plenty of time to grow. I learned this the hard way in my teens as a young collector.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

And I feel that's the only way for them to move forward and continue to be successful. Unfortunately for us, it means prices are going to continue to go up, up, up, while the quality and engineering/articulation may stay relatively the same for quite some time.

Well they've been pretty successful despite that. if it's any indication from Toy Fair this year, articulation will be going down, and prices the same; nothing changes, because we as fans keep buying them. If you keep buying them and you feel you're paying too much, or there's no articulation, you're not really sending the right message with your dollar.

I'm not sure you follow me with why it's called "Black Series"- using the term "Black Series" is taking off of a trend in many luxury goods and services. Many of these services are called "Black"; The Black line Credit Card, the Black section (VIP), etc. Neither of these lines are aimed at kids. If they were, why offer all the other low-articulated product and reissues of other figures? If parents have been complaining about how much the figures cost as to why they're not buying them, why do a line where they're $20 or more a pop?

In 2002, Hasbro was doing toys for Attack of the Clones, and those as you will remember, were little semi-articulated statues, and had action features, magnets, etc.- all things fans asked for over the 1990's at various points, as these were absent from Star Wars toys at the time. Fans complained after the new movie lost its luster, stores overordered the first waves and none of the later ones. There were tons of these things on the pegs. The ones with the best articulation sold far better than the other figures. Some shops were ordering cases for just those, I worked at one - fans spoke up online, and a lot of the figures were just not selling. Hasbro asked retailers and fans: what do you want? And most said "Super articulation!" and behold, in 2004 they came out with just that. And they were very overpriced for the time, and people ate them up and they were sold out everywhere for months. The low sales of the non-articulated figures gradually gave way to the line going (pretty much) super articulated by 2007. This is all armchair quarterbacking, but I doubt VOTC and super-articulation would have happened for Star Wars toys, if people didn't move towards Spider-Man Classics and Marvel Legends at that time, instead of just continuing to buy toys they didn't like. Companies usually only chance when forced to, by legislation, or money Again, I don't think that fan outcry was the main, or the only factor, by any stretch. But it was plain to see, people didn't buy them in the numbers Hasbro wanted to sell, so they changed. Not because of fan outcry alone, but because people didn't buy them. If you do or don't buy something it sends a message. Why else would they do super articulated after that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

I don't see how that's possible, considering Hasbro sells toys by the case (not individually) and most mass-market retailers do not keep track of statistics on individual toys, such as the age of the buyers and why they are buying a particular toy or toys.

Well they do have HTS and you can see what sells more pretty easily on your toy hunts. And they do have reps that check in on larger retailers. I haven't met one personally since the mid 2000s but I would doubt they've changed that much. It's pretty easy to see the pegs and say: "Wow, no Thing figures, but DAMN there's a lot of Falcons." It's also easy to look online and see which ones command a premium. You can also see which case assortments sell more than others.

There's also a clear move to individualize the SKUs on figures. A common complaint from fans and retailers is people buying cases online, and then going to TRU or Target, and buying several figures, then returning the unwanted extras to the retail store. In my area this is so bad, I haven't bought a MU figure at retail for a bit. One day, a full set of 2013 figures, like Professor X, etc. Next day, all Falcons, and other older figures, returned. From what other Arkers say, it's the same for them too. If Star Wars figures are one a case, then you really thought they bought 20 cases at your local TRU and missed them all except Obi Wans and Clone Pilots? Many brought up this well known scam can't be done at retail if the SKUs were individualized, which is a big switch. They've been rumbling about doing it extensively for several years now, and it would make sense to see this if not fully in place this year, then next. Again, if you think Hasbro hasn't thought of all this, or doesn't do ground-level research...

I agree with you, that collectors focus is razor sharp, and we are not the focus of Hasbro's strategies. But it is a focus, and not a small one. Otherwise why go to all these lengths, why not just do the 5 POA figures like the Marvel Dollar General line? Why do SDCC? Why do retailer exclusives? Why make a Longshot figure? Why work for us at all LOL

I think a lot of the "we don't cater to collectors" attitude has more to do with trying to deflect expectations, and crazy-uber-fans, than an actual mantra. Think of how much flack Mattel gets on its collectors lines, versus the actual amount of product sold. Hasbro gets a lot of crap but they don't engage as much anymore and that's a good thing. They have a focus on both collector and kid. It shows in what's offered.

[Iceman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trebleshot

I wouldn't go that far. Capsule toys are just as random as gum ball machines. At least with a toy aisle in Walmart, you can see exactly what you're buying (unless it's blind-bagged stuff like minifigs). That's why I don't think they should be included in this particular discussion - there's nothing really to compare it with in the US.

We'd have better luck dividing by zero.

EDIT: Besides, that's the Japanese market. We're talking about Hasbro, who doesn't have a branch in Japan (they have a deal with Takara-Tomy about that which started with Transformers).

The randomness and different delievery method isn't the point I was making. Just that Japanese kids DO buy toys. They just have these things that take a up a large part of the market. They are low cost to make and low upkeep for sellers (no staff) but some of the stuff comes with better detail than stuff kids buy here for more money. I am just saying that the wall of vending machines is THEIR Wal-Mart toy aisle, not that the two are the same but that they serve the same purpose. Maybe having this stuff servicing the large part of the child toy market in Japan is part of what allows them to make high-end adult focused lines. Also, having a large consumer base in nearby countries like Korea. I just think that the reason Japan has more high-end figure lines has to do with a lot of things and way more adult collectors than the US. Model building is also big over there so that probably eats into the market and with smaller living spaces people don't have as much room for a collection as the typical American. We are a collecting driven society. From baseball cards to stuff like collectors plates, beanie babies, cars, spoons, antiques, cats, etc. I think people collect stuff they loved growing up that bring back fond memories and the action figure is fairly new but the people that grew up with them in full force are of the collecting age now and that market seems to get more and more crazy every year.

And as I said before the population of the US is much more spread out with many more retail locations that are spread out to supply with toys than Japan does (proportionally to population). Distribution would likely be a lost easier if you took the population of the US and pushed them to one half of the country. I have no solution to the distribution issues and clearly it isn't easy for the pros or else we wouldn't get annoyed by it.

[flaccideagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

And as I said before the population of the US is much more spread out with many more retail locations that are spread out to supply with toys than Japan does (proportionally to population). Distribution would likely be a lost easier if you took the population of the US and pushed them to one half of the country. I have no solution to the distribution issues and clearly it isn't easy for the pros or else we wouldn't get annoyed by it.

It's clear also that Hasbro is working on the distribution issue- there's only so much you can do. Since there's pegs that are full, but just not what you want, stores don't order newer waves. If stores don't order them, then Hasbro can't make money. If Hasbro doesn't make money, on something that is already expensive to make and has a small profit margin, then why do it?

Personally I think a lot of people take advantage of store policies and return the "peg warmers" to retail, exchanging them for the "hot" "rare" or "valuable" figures, and this is a much bigger issue that people realize. Some people I used to see on this very site were brazenly open about doing it. I see patterns in some of the flea market stalls in my area too- on Friday, TRU has all new figures on the shelves, and the stall has tons of older figures; by Sunday, TRU has all these older waves of figures, and the stall has all these new figures... hmm. I found a MU variant at retail last year, bent the card corner so maybe a child could get it. Nope, somebody had it on eBay the next week has it up for $50. People buying things just to re-sell them is a big part of the problem.

As for Gashapon and "capsule" toys- these are often not just sold in vending machines, there's sold at 7-11s and at corner stores, in boxes, and many sell for US$5-10 per blind box. The popularity of the "blind box" style of selling the toys has clearly influenced other toymakers in the US and elsewhere to follow suit. The other things US toymakers both indie and multinational have picked up- controlled inventory, using controversy as publicity, normal cheap toys marketed as high end luxury/fashion items, and various other dubious methods to push their wares- that's another issue.

[Iceman]

I do feel like when I see a picture of 15 Gladiators on the pegs it can't be only because that one store ordered so many and sold everything but that, right? How many cases would that have to be? I don't know how many people buy up stuff and return it to stores far away from then but I know it happens.

[Goldengreg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flaccideagle

Personally I think a lot of people take advantage of store policies and return the "peg warmers" to retail

I'm not very familiar with the US store policies. What is this "peg warmer return" ?
You mean you can buy a common figure in a shop, and exchange it for another rare figure in another shop?

[bmorr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldengreg

I'm not very familiar with the US store policies. What is this "peg warmer return" ?
You mean you can buy a common figure in a shop, and exchange it for another rare figure in another shop?

basically, a guy buys all the peg warmers at a certain store and returns them to another location in the hope that the store he bought them from orders new cases to fill the empty shelf.

[jestermon]

They probably don't think the smaller lines sell well since they try to sell them for $10, I don't like the 6 inch or their price, but it's ridiculous that the gap between the 2 is only a few bucks.

[Iceman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jestermon

They probably don't think the smaller lines sell well since they try to sell them for $10, I don't like the 6 inch or their price, but it's ridiculous that the gap between the 2 is only a few bucks.

10 years ago it was the Marvel Legends that were only $7.99.